Is there any interest in organic turf managment?

Dchall_San_Antonio – posted 26 June 2003 10:04

I’ve been using organic methods and materials on my St Augustine for a couple years now following 30+ years of synthetic chemical management. I’ve been commenting on the topic for over a year on other Internet sites and have learned quite a bit from listening carefully to others’ experiences and doing substantial reading.

I’m a scientific kind of guy and never gave organic gardening any credit until I read something that cleared up all the problems I had. The dirty little secret that makes organic gardening work is that the soil has literally tens of thousands of microbes living in the soil, and those microbes can do nearly anything (biochemically speaking). Before the advent of DNA testing, it was believed the numbers of soil borne microbes might number in the tens to maybe a hundred, because that was all the scientists could get to grow in a petri dish in the lab. Now, DNA testing has revealed that there are upwards of 40,000 distinctly different species of microbes living in healthy old growth forest and as many as 25,000 species living in gardens and farms. This revelation has cleared up the mystery of how organic gardening works. I can explain all that.

If there is any interest, I can share what I’ve learned and make it easy to transition to an organic program from wherever you are today. If there is no interest or if y’all are going to argue about the approach, I’ll be happy to leave y’all alone. I’m not making any money on this, I just like to help.

As you can already tell, I’m on the wordy side. I believe that folks would rather understand why something works and be able to explain it to their spouses, children, and friends than to just change what they’re doing on blind faith. I’ll give you the why’s and wherefore’s with all the caveats I know of. I think I have pretty good explanations.

I promise I will not recommend anything that will kill your lawn, make it smell bad, or cost you a fortune. In fact, your lawn can look exactly like the pictures on the Scott’s bag, it will smell fresh as a daisy at all times, and the annual cost will be less than the annual cost of the Scott’s program. I promise all that. Do I guarantee all that? Well, I can’t exactly come through your screen and force you to follow my suggestions to the letter, so you have to accept some responsibility for implementation. But you’ll find it all to be very easy to implement with tools you already own. You will also have your weeds under control without herbicides. You will also have grubs and nematodes under control without pesticides. You will also have fungal disease under control without synthetic chemical fungicides. And you will do this with so much less hassle you won’t believe it’s just that easy.

Here are a couple of my rants you will read about if you are interested.

1. Core aeration is not necessary.2. Dethatching is not necessary.3. Automatic sprinklers are the bane of turf gardening.4. Tall grass (except bermuda or bent) is the solution to most problems in turf.5. All fungal turf disease can be cured with one organic material, any day of the year, rain or shine. Yes, all of them. And yes, there is university research on it. 6. You can turn pure white Florida sand into black dirt. 7. You can turn pure red Alabama clay into black dirt.8. Tilling is ALMOST never necessary. 9. Healthy St Augustine will choke out almost all the weeds you have. 10. Soil tests are rarely valuable.

I have written a 30 page FAQ on organic turf management and am willing to post the shortened version (5 pages) to this website. The only reason I won’t post the entire thing is I’m contemplating publishing it some day (next century if I play my procrastination right). I also have collected a list of 15 benefits you can get from an organic program that you cannot get from any chemical program. Not included in that list is the sense of relief you will get from stopping the use of chemicals around your family and pets. The list is only a list of plant related benefits.

So if anyone is still reading and you’re interested in finding out more about organic turf management, just respond to this post with a “Yes.” If not, respond with a “No,” and I’ll tally up the votes. If the yesses outnumber the nos, I’ll register and start responding to the messages I see that could benefit from an organic program. I’ll also post the FAQ as an independent message for quicker reference.

crid – posted 27 June 2003 21:21

I live in Phoenix, AZ and I am a recent Green Guerrilla graduate. I am very interested in any advice you might have on starting a St. Augustine lawn and maintaining it organically of course.Chris

twoseas – posted 02 July 2003 12:33

Yes…

jackal – posted 02 July 2003 13:40

You have my attention!

wdrake – posted 02 July 2003 15:28

Yes

bbrown – posted 02 July 2003 22:08

yes on organic grass management. also, i get grubs ruining my lawn every year. bb

Dchall_San_Antonio – posted 03 July 2003 11:34

Okay. I already registered the other day. I’ll dust off the FAQ and post it.

12ofuskids – posted 20 April 2004 21:22

I have a 30 year old St. Augustine lawn with a thick thach and spots of yellowing where the grass has no roots.

12ofuskids – posted 20 April 2004 21:26

Yes

Harbormaster – posted 21 April 2004 06:14

Yes.

ted – posted 25 April 2004 19:15

no.

ljones – posted 25 April 2004 20:56

yes

yes – posted 28 April 2004 08:12

yes

ted – posted 28 April 2004 15:04

i’m going to have to take exception to the comments in an earlier post.First, aeration is an extremely important turf management activity, soils can get compacted over time and need air and water to circulate better. Second,dethatching can be very beneficial to certain types of grasses, and is used by every professional in the industry when renovating/overseeding warm weather grasses. Third, sprinklers are incredibly important! Most homeowners don’t have the time or discipline to water correctly. The problem with sprinklers is that they are never designed and calibrated correctly and this leads to under/overwatering. Fourth, I agree that the tall grass is a better way to fend off weeds on most species. Fifth, there’s absolutely no evidence that corn anything makes for a decent fungicide on turf. You mention there’s university research on this, but the university that you quote has not performed any such research on turf. I know, because one of the professors at Texas A & M has consulted for my company!!!Sixth, i agree with the tilling comments. Seventh, true St. Augustine will choke most other weeds, but so will other well maintained turfgrasses. You don’t want some guy from Minnesota buying St. Aug. and trying to grow it! And believe me, judging by some of these posts, they probably would do it! Lastly, the soil test comments are ridiculous. There’s no way to determine “where you are” on the soil unless you figure out ph and all of the other nutrients.

The general concept of the organic type programs are sound. Good cultural practices will always minimize the use of pesticides. Good management practices also include the careful use of pesticides whenever they are necessary, but realize that most of the time the only reason we’re using pesticides is because of some screw-up in the installation/maintenance program. The right grass, installed correctly will work without a whole lot of trouble. I’m a four year graduate of a major Turf School, with over 20 years experience in the industry. I’m also a CTP (Certified Turfgrass Professional.)

cohiba – posted 28 April 2004 19:11

Ted,HERE, HERE!!!! I agree with you in all your points. However, I do agree that as time goes on we are finding true “organic” solutions to some of our problems.

The major problem we have is one that has plagued mankind since Augusta first aired on TV in color: Unrealistic expectations for a natural growing plant system. We all want perfect lawns and golf courses. We should expect brown patches, dry spots, a few weeds and, Dare I Say, some grub damage. Its all natural. Nature is not perfect. Therefore unless we are spending way too much for our maintenance programs we are expecting too much form that tiny little blade of grass and its neighbors on the lawn.

PS. My sons’ favorite weed is dandelions which I am not allowed to kill on our back yard. A compromise that suits me fine.

Just my two cents…. Take Care

MelbourneFL – posted 29 April 2004 14:05

Another yes on organic grass management!

Getting ready to put something down now, just don’t know what. I have St. Augustinegrass/Floratam, a good part of the lawn is mixed with brown/dead grass (most likely caused by bonus s). I switched to lesco in mid november and during the cooler weather it looked better than most lawns (seemed like it recovered). In feb I put down lesco weed&feed but varius weeds popped up after that. Now it’s back to a mix.

Looking at lesco I found some organic, but what does all this mean:

10-10-10 40%PPSCU 12%AS 1%FE 1%MN 1%MG 30%BIO

ted – posted 29 April 2004 16:13

Cohiba, i believe at some point, whether it’s medicine or food production, all of our answers will come from either naturally occuring substances or some new inventions regarding pesticides or genetically modified plant types. We’re already seeing huge 400 acre plots of “Roundup Ready” grass being planted in Oregon. See “Wired” magazine.com. we’ll be installing and maintaining these grasses completely differently in a few years. But we’re not quite ready yet….

cohiba – posted 30 April 2004 07:56

Ted, the Round-up ready bentgrasses will be used primarily on new golf courses. While it is intriquing to see stuff like that happen its is on such a small scale in the grand scheme of things. Also, weeds are not my main concern with 3 acres of bentgrass greens. If, and I believe they will, they come up with a disease resistant bentgrass;Then sign me up. We spend about $23,000 a year on disease control and “only” $12,000 in weed and insect control. Rutgers did the breeding on the turf(My alma mater)and continue to do breeding and testing on a number of other projects. Maybe our great grand children will benefit from things like this but not yet. I got a price on the new poa annua killer last week: Velocity: 1 oz. per acre, $100.00 per ounce. I nearly fell off the chair-But I ordered 8 oz. to treat 8 acres of Perennial Ryegrass fairways in the fall. Until they come up with some snake-oil-organic-thingamagig-compound to kill poa I’ll try this and pay the price.

Take care………

greengrass – posted 02 May 2004 23:26

Why do us superintendent not us awhole lot of organic on our bentgrass greens? It’s because to much organic causes fungus. Mainly fairy rings and it’s hard to get rid of once you get it without using something expensive like Pro-Star.

ted – posted 03 May 2004 16:13

Huh?

magali – posted 03 October 2004 19:08

I am interested in your method for zoysia grass in northern alabama.

quote:Originally posted by Dchall_San_Antonio:I’ve been using organic methods and materials on my St Augustine for a couple years now following 30+ years of synthetic chemical management. I’ve been commenting on the topic for over a year on other Internet sites and have learned quite a bit from listening carefully to others’ experiences and doing substantial reading.

I’m a scientific kind of guy and never gave organic gardening any credit until I read something that cleared up all the problems I had. The dirty little secret that makes organic gardening work is that the soil has literally tens of thousands of microbes living in the soil, and those microbes can do nearly anything (biochemically speaking). Before the advent of DNA testing, it was believed the numbers of soil borne microbes might number in the tens to maybe a hundred, because that was all the scientists could get to grow in a petri dish in the lab. Now, DNA testing has revealed that there are upwards of 40,000 distinctly different species of microbes living in healthy old growth forest and as many as 25,000 species living in gardens and farms. This revelation has cleared up the mystery of how organic gardening works. I can explain all that.

If there is any interest, I can share what I’ve learned and make it easy to transition to an organic program from wherever you are today. If there is no interest or if y’all are going to argue about the approach, I’ll be happy to leave y’all alone. I’m not making any money on this, I just like to help.

As you can already tell, I’m on the wordy side. I believe that folks would rather understand why something works and be able to explain it to their spouses, children, and friends than to just change what they’re doing on blind faith. I’ll give you the why’s and wherefore’s with all the caveats I know of. I think I have pretty good explanations.

I promise I will not recommend anything that will kill your lawn, make it smell bad, or cost you a fortune. In fact, your lawn can look exactly like the pictures on the Scott’s bag, it will smell fresh as a daisy at all times, and the annual cost will be less than the annual cost of the Scott’s program. I promise all that. Do I guarantee all that? Well, I can’t exactly come through your screen and force you to follow my suggestions to the letter, so you have to accept some responsibility for implementation. But you’ll find it all to be very easy to implement with tools you already own. You will also have your weeds under control without herbicides. You will also have grubs and nematodes under control without pesticides. You will also have fungal disease under control without synthetic chemical fungicides. And you will do this with so much less hassle you won’t believe it’s just that easy.

Here are a couple of my rants you will read about if you are interested.

1. Core aeration is not necessary.2. Dethatching is not necessary.3. Automatic sprinklers are the bane of turf gardening.4. Tall grass (except bermuda or bent) is the solution to most problems in turf.5. All fungal turf disease can be cured with one organic material, any day of the year, rain or shine. Yes, all of them. And yes, there is university research on it. 6. You can turn pure white Florida sand into black dirt. 7. You can turn pure red Alabama clay into black dirt.8. Tilling is ALMOST never necessary. 9. Healthy St Augustine will choke out almost all the weeds you have. 10. Soil tests are rarely valuable.

I have written a 30 page FAQ on organic turf management and am willing to post the shortened version (5 pages) to this website. The only reason I won’t post the entire thing is I’m contemplating publishing it some day (next century if I play my procrastination right). I also have collected a list of 15 benefits you can get from an organic program that you cannot get from any chemical program. Not included in that list is the sense of relief you will get from stopping the use of chemicals around your family and pets. The list is only a list of plant related benefits.

So if anyone is still reading and you’re interested in finding out more about organic turf management, just respond to this post with a “Yes.” If not, respond with a “No,” and I’ll tally up the votes. If the yesses outnumber the nos, I’ll register and start responding to the messages I see that could benefit from an organic program. I’ll also post the FAQ as an independent message for quicker reference.

starryheart2 – posted 04 October 2004 09:11

quote:

Originally posted by Dchall_San_Antonio:B/So if anyone is still reading and you’re interested in finding out more about organic turf management, just respond to this post with a “Yes.” If not, respond with a “No,” and I’ll tally up the votes. If the yesses outnumber the nos, I’ll register and start responding to the messages I see that could benefit from an organic program. I’ll also post the FAQ as an independent message for quicker reference. [/B]

Yes, Affirmative, positively, ‘your on’, go for it . . . lol I am very interested in your information.

Trish-W. Coast Florida – posted 27 October 2004 08:34

Yes, I am interested in what you have to say

minnesotafan – posted 29 October 2004 15:25

Please go ahead I am more than interesed in your advice.

blazer_bob – posted 29 October 2004 17:55

Yes I am interested.

ptzgrl – posted 23 December 2004 22:27    

Count me in!! I want to learn all I can about organic turf management…after all, I live in sunny So.California!!

mbm200 – posted 17 August 2005 14:00

quote:Originally posted by Dchall_San_Antonio:I’ve been using organic methods and materials on my St Augustine for a couple years now following 30+ years of synthetic chemical management. I’ve been commenting on the topic for over a year on other Internet sites and have learned quite a bit from listening carefully to others’ experiences and doing substantial reading.

I’m a scientific kind of guy and never gave organic gardening any credit until I read something that cleared up all the problems I had. The dirty little secret that makes organic gardening work is that the soil has literally tens of thousands of microbes living in the soil, and those microbes can do nearly anything (biochemically speaking). Before the advent of DNA testing, it was believed the numbers of soil borne microbes might number in the tens to maybe a hundred, because that was all the scientists could get to grow in a petri dish in the lab. Now, DNA testing has revealed that there are upwards of 40,000 distinctly different species of microbes living in healthy old growth forest and as many as 25,000 species living in gardens and farms. This revelation has cleared up the mystery of how organic gardening works. I can explain all that.

If there is any interest, I can share what I’ve learned and make it easy to transition to an organic program from wherever you are today. If there is no interest or if y’all are going to argue about the approach, I’ll be happy to leave y’all alone. I’m not making any money on this, I just like to help.

As you can already tell, I’m on the wordy side. I believe that folks would rather understand why something works and be able to explain it to their spouses, children, and friends than to just change what they’re doing on blind faith. I’ll give you the why’s and wherefore’s with all the caveats I know of. I think I have pretty good explanations.

I promise I will not recommend anything that will kill your lawn, make it smell bad, or cost you a fortune. In fact, your lawn can look exactly like the pictures on the Scott’s bag, it will smell fresh as a daisy at all times, and the annual cost will be less than the annual cost of the Scott’s program. I promise all that. Do I guarantee all that? Well, I can’t exactly come through your screen and force you to follow my suggestions to the letter, so you have to accept some responsibility for implementation. But you’ll find it all to be very easy to implement with tools you already own. You will also have your weeds under control without herbicides. You will also have grubs and nematodes under control without pesticides. You will also have fungal disease under control without synthetic chemical fungicides. And you will do this with so much less hassle you won’t believe it’s just that easy.

Here are a couple of my rants you will read about if you are interested.

1. Core aeration is not necessary.2. Dethatching is not necessary.3. Automatic sprinklers are the bane of turf gardening.4. Tall grass (except bermuda or bent) is the solution to most problems in turf.5. All fungal turf disease can be cured with one organic material, any day of the year, rain or shine. Yes, all of them. And yes, there is university research on it. 6. You can turn pure white Florida sand into black dirt. 7. You can turn pure red Alabama clay into black dirt.8. Tilling is ALMOST never necessary. 9. Healthy St Augustine will choke out almost all the weeds you have. 10. Soil tests are rarely valuable.

I have written a 30 page FAQ on organic turf management and am willing to post the shortened version (5 pages) to this website. The only reason I won’t post the entire thing is I’m contemplating publishing it some day (next century if I play my procrastination right). I also have collected a list of 15 benefits you can get from an organic program that you cannot get from any chemical program. Not included in that list is the sense of relief you will get from stopping the use of chemicals around your family and pets. The list is only a list of plant related benefits.

So if anyone is still reading and you’re interested in finding out more about organic turf management, just respond to this post with a “Yes.” If not, respond with a “No,” and I’ll tally up the votes. If the yesses outnumber the nos, I’ll register and start responding to the messages I see that could benefit from an organic program. I’ll also post the FAQ as an independent message for quicker reference.

yes, yes, yes, plese tell me. i am a 100% organic gardener please help me. thanks

Bagelboer – posted 18 August 2005 09:56

Yes, to the Aug. 17, 2005 post

Bagelboer – posted 18 August 2005 09:58

quote:Originally posted by mbm200: yes, yes, yes, plese tell me. i am a 100% organic gardener please help me. thanks

Here is my YES!

Friend – posted 18 August 2005 11:15

Yes to organic!!

here is a good web site on product and info

www.soilsecrets.com

QWERTY – posted 18 August 2005 12:19

go to www.dirtdoctor.com. he’s a moderator there in the forum under grass section. pretty good stuff for organic practice. Learned quite a few things from him. I wouldn’t listen to “Chemical” Ted that lurks on this forum. He thinks organic yard care doesn’t work and poison is the way to go. Ignore him.

KBilly – posted 19 August 2005 12:18

DCH-SA knows what he speaks of. I used to hang at that DD forum, but then they had the bright idea to start charging people to post. So, I, and many others, left. Last time I looked, they have about 3-8 people per day viewing, and never more than 2-3 that are members that can actually do anything! That’s from a high of over 400 earlier this year. I give it another six months.

Ted: corn meal has been a proven fungus killer for quite a while now. Does wonders for brown spot in St. Aug. Does wonders for powdery mildew on crepe mytles. And how about balck spot on roses, hmmmmmmmm? Try it instead of slagging it.

Also, with a proper organic program, you will have a TON of microbial life and a lot of earthworms in your soil. That’s all the aeration you need — ever looked at what earthworms do for a well kept lawn??

Slowly adding potassium salts, via chem. fertilizers, 2-4 times a year is akin to adding a teaspoon of salt to your goldfish tank every week. Pretty soon, the fish is dead. Same thing happens to healthy soil and the organisms that live in balance within it.

Feed the soil, and the grass takes care of itself.

[This message has been edited by KBilly (edited 19 August 2005).]

jr – posted 19 August 2005 17:31

thats categorically ridiculous. you are not going to correct a leaf borne disease by applying corn meal to the soil. powdery mildew is the by-product of an insect, scale, with aphids, not a fungus at all. black spot on roses is a fungus, but a leaf fungus, which will not be cured by cornmeal.

QWERTY – posted 19 August 2005 17:57

JR,

How would you know? Have you actually tried it?

www.soilsecrets.com seems to be a whole level above regular organic care. Amazing…

KBilly – posted 20 August 2005 15:08

Hey JR… and your answer is even MORE categorically rediculous! First of all, powdery mildew IS a fungus.

“Grayish white patches on the new growth of crepe myrtles is an indication of the presence of powdery mildew. This fungus disease has made its appearance during the past few weeks, and although powdery mildew won’t kill affected plants, it is unsightly and weakens crepe myrtles by attacking young leaves and growing tips.”

http://msucares.com/newsletters/pests/infobytes/19980519.htm

And where, anywhere, did I say that you apply it to the ground? You mix it with water to create a watery slurry and you spray!

So, next time, don’t assume, and check your mildew facts too.

Have a nice life…

Friend – posted 22 August 2005 13:04

anyone who wants to talk about organic’s can go to www.soilsecrets.info/? it’s free..

jr – posted 22 August 2005 18:16

i was thinking sooty mold when i wrote that. i should have paid more attention to the original post.

turf the smurf – posted 23 August 2005 14:24

I definately believe organics have their place and merits such as compost and having a earthworm friendly soil via amendments, but I am NOT an organic purist. Most of the organic ‘gurus’ and their followers are just a bunch of Michael Moore wackos, some only in it for the (outrageous) money it brings from idealogue suckers who are content with feelings than facts.

Most of the organic “rocket fuels” sold over the market are nothing more than snake oil as proven by leading universities such as Rutgers, TX A&M, Beltsville, Maryland, etc. Medina Soil Activator or Hasta Gro comes to mind….just for starts.

Whew. End of MY rant……

QWERTY – posted 23 August 2005 14:35 So naive….

They do it for profits. Organic has no place for them. It’s easy to patent new chemicals for garden care and make tons of profits so they say whatever they want to about organic stuff so they’d sell more of their chemical stuff. This has happened so many times…

turf the smurf – posted 23 August 2005 18:21

I’ll give my vote to Monsanto anyday over the high price organic rocket fuel manufacturers. Most of such scammers are just plain lieing about their products “benefits” and are only out to take your money based on your emotional needs, not the elemental needs of your plants/turf. It has become a religion based on blind faith with some of these organic wackos. If my soil analysis indicates that I have a N deficiency, then it’s refreshing to know I have many solutions of choice, organic or chemical. However, organics must be transformed into a chemical state, or the plant has no way of uptaking major and minor elements it needs for sustainment.

Orginator of this thread needs to take Botany 101 course before he spews his ideologue baloney. A soil analysis have no value? Whew!

QWERTY – posted 23 August 2005 19:27

Oh boy, you don’t have a clue, do you? Do your homework little boy.

KBilly – posted 24 August 2005 15:56

Turf Smurf…

I hope that you and Monsanto and your goldfish are happy together.

And compost, corn gluten meal, molasses, Texas green sand and vinegar were more than fairly priced the last time I checked.

Oh yea… they don’t kill the soil life either.

[This message has been edited by KBilly (edited 24 August 2005).]

QWERTY – posted 24 August 2005 16:09

Yep. KBilly got it right. Monsanto is nothing more than an evil business. If you really knew what went on behind the doors, you’d be shocked. They ruined farners lives just because their patented plants (soybean or corn) pollen got blown into their farm and breed with their plants and got sued for using their stuff. They also forced dairy farmers to inject hormones into cows to milk more (and supposedly hormones were in the milk as well). It goes on and on and on. They’re ruining environment badly. They just dont care about people or anything else but money.

gabe – posted 24 August 2005 21:55

QWERTY

i find many of your posts very helpful and informative. even despite my chemical (as in non-organic) tendencies, your touting of low-impact organic turf maintenance has, at the very least, piqued my interest in alternate approaches, in certian situations. that said, though i certainly believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion, you seem to have an agenda. i think your message ‘re: organics’ would be more warmly received by many if there wasn’t the blatant ‘agri-chemicals are the devil’ tone in many posts.

again, i truly find the majority of your posts quite insightful and accurate. i, personally, just don’t care for the outward agenda. and i realize that this post (from one anonymous poster to another) will most certainly not affect your future postings in any way, but thought i’d pass along how i see it, and possibly how others feel. of course, i speak only for myself.

(btw, i didn’t agree with many of the posts on this thread that were categorically dismissive of the potential benefits of organics either, they were just as agenda driven.)lastly, i thought you’re condemning of monsanto was funny considering your reccomendations in another thread about establishing a bermuda lawn:

>> 2) KILL THEM with round up. >> 5) Another week of watering. Kill them again with round up.

now that i’ve most certainly ticked off a great percentage of the readers, i’ll be sure to post under another handle next time.

turfrus – posted 25 August 2005 13:05

qwerty has gone from one kind of grass to another, recommend you go back to that wacko site Q, and you know what (kind of) site I mean.

If it weren’t for the likes of Monsanto, the world would go to bed hungry and destitute. They have done far more good for mankind, worldwide, than the “bad” the idealoque wackos would like you to believe. The evil ones are the extremists who will listen to no-one that presents an opposing view. Their agenda is the only one that matters, as their crooked lawyers lead the way. There is alot of fraud on the side of the tree huggers and their organic vendor friends.

Having said that, I believe organics have their place and use them wholeheartedly. I also believe chemicals have theirs too, so do my plant friends or they wouldn’t be living. They must uptake salts, organically derived or not, to live….. period.

I farm, so don’t tell me about the good and bed of using herbicides and pesticides. I am licensed by the state to use products you can not get and fully understand their potential for harm. It’s called a Professional Applicators License and involves a very comprehensive study about the use and dangers of chemical pesticides.

And God knows, long live Glyphosate, the active ingredient in Round-Up, Eraser, and other total kill herbicides….one of THE safest chemicals Monsanto has come up with and one which has saved the farmer and consumer billions of dollars.

jrjazzman – posted 25 August 2005 18:08

The chemical vs. organic is always an interesting conversation topic. Organic doesn’t necessarily equal good and chemical doesn’t necessarily equal bad.

There are numerous symbiotic relationships between soil microbes and plant roots. Microbes literally feed roots and the roots in turn feed microbes. Certain types of microbes coat roots and actually protect them from soil born pathogens. Simply providing NPK to plants doesn’t help any of this. Organic material, such as organic fertilizers, compost, grains, etc., provide a host of micronutrients and organic compounds that most soils benefit from. For example, years ago the land my house was built on was farmed with synthetics. According to historical reports I’ve seen, this combined with poor crop rotation ruined the land’s fertility. The first thing the builder did in this neighborhood was excavate the lots removing in most cases feet of topsoil. The soil was VERY inorganic. So, I have a lot of work to do just to return the soil to a somewhat fertile, normal state. This will never happen with plain NPK. Humans can live on twinkies for a long time, but at some point your teeth start falling out and evertyhing goes downhill. Just not sustainable.

[This message has been edited by jrjazzman (edited 25 August 2005).]

[This message has been edited by jrjazzman (edited 25 August 2005).]

Qwerty – posted 25 August 2005 21:43

Ha ha.

I was just showing them a best way to get rid of bermuda grasses. That has to do with being organic. Entirely different subject. if they do it one time just to get rid of them and practice organic care from there on, much better. It really depends. Bermuda is pretty hard to get rid of once established…

Interesting… I found this…

ROUND-UP: DANISH WATER CONTAMINATED BY ROUND-UP, BAN IMPOSEDDanish water contaminated by round-up, ban imposed

September 15, 2003: Denmark has imposed a ban on the spraying of glyphosates today following the release of data which found that glyphosate, the active ingredient in Monsanto’s Roundup herbicide (RR) has been contaminating the drinking water resources of the country.

The chemical has, against all expectations sieving down through the soil and polluting the ground water at a rate of five times more than the allowed level for drinking water, according to tests done by the Denmark and Greenland Geological Research Institution (DGGRI) as reported below.

“When we spray glyphosate on the fields by the rules it has been shown that it is washed down into the upper ground water with a concentration of 0.54 micrograms per litre. This is very surprising, because we had previously believed that bacteria in the soil broke down the glyphosate before it reached the ground water,” says DGGRI.

turfrus – posted 26 August 2005 07:16

Q, you can find any study, true or not, parsed or not, with any unique or peculiar circumstance (rule #1, don’t use near waterways, duh) to support your agenda if you look hard enough. Especially on the internet supported by some radical religious orgnanic group of tree huggin’ wackos. Sounds like some Dutchman was smokin’ too much of that Dutch weed hehe.

Soil bacteria immediately begin work on breaking down glyphosate, especially in alkaline soils, into harmless chemicals. So it goes with organophosphates which are broken down into phosphates from which they were derived.

jrjazzman, great points. Had the same problem and started planting my land in green manure crops which I shall continue to do (it aint cheap let me tell you). I’ve planted legumes such as sweet clover and hairy vetch. Just plowed under a 6′ high field of cereal rye planted last fall, which seeded VERY heavily so it should come back nicely in a couple of months. Yes, chemical abuse by an ole farm boy about ruined the health of my land, to a limited extent, as I do have millions of earthworms in the soil across my acreage. In a couple of months I plan to plant oats and clover for the very high compost value it will impart and to continue the bio soil plow thingie. Funny, but alot of ranchers think I’m nuts and ask why I’m not running cows on the crops. Sweet clover, plowed under just before blooming, can be the best fertilizer for your land. Recommend it highly as it also acts as a mineral scavenger due to its deep invasive root system (is a biological soil plow) and adds alot of humus. Use Hubam or Madrid.

I recently tilled in 50 cu. yds. of free horse manure/straw in 6,000 s.f. before laying Zoysia sod as I have a hard, clayey calcareous soil. Shoot, it’s like a brick when dry.

Good luck