St. Augustine vs Bermuda

MSgirl – posted 09 June 2004 08:23

I am in the process of seeding my yard…I was told to use part St. Augustine and part Bermuda. Am I not correct in thinking that the St. Augustine would take over the Bermuda? I live in the deep south and the yard is mostly shaded. Any suggestions?

ted – posted 09 June 2004 19:57

you don’t seed either variety. they’re both sodded.

Bobby – posted 10 June 2004 08:39

I just bought two bags of hybrid bermuda seed at Lowes. Is it not really what the label says?

MSgirl – posted 10 June 2004 08:49

my question is why would the landscape architect request that both bermuda and St. augustine be planted together?

ted – posted 10 June 2004 13:14

you can buy bermuda seed. it’s just horribly slow to germinate, and nobody uses it. i have no idea why a landscape architect (is he or her?) would advise mixing grasses. must be a sun/shade type of approach. a landscape architect might not know the particulars of grass types, possibly.

Alex_in_FL – posted 10 June 2004 19:26

I recommend against mixing Bermuda and St Augustine. The yards generally look like heck as the grasses look different and have different colors.

Which takes over? If you cut it low, the yard would become mostly bermuda. Cut it high and it becomes mostly St Augustine.

Mixing the grasses causes all kinds of problems. What weed killer would you use? Atrazine kills weeds in St. Augustine but kills bermuda. MSMA, 2,4-D etc kill weeds in Bermuda but kill St. Augustine. But then, you might think the weeds make the yard look better since bermuda and St Augustine grasses have different textures and different colors.

Just pick one of the two. There are a couple of St Augustine grasses that do okay in the shade. St Augustine must be sodded or plugged. Bermuda can be seeded. Soak the seeds in water for 12-24 hours to speed germination.

Good luck and you might want to check that landscape architect’s credentials.

Alex

grassnut – posted 14 June 2004 15:49

ted wrote”you can buy bermuda seed. it’s just horribly slow to germinate, and nobody uses it.”

I’m not sure if I agree with this statement. I planted Bermuda Triangle and it was over an inch tall within two weeks. I was mowing at 3 weeks. That’s not to long to wait. I’m going out on a limb here, but I’m guessing ted is in the “sod” business.

cohiba – posted 14 June 2004 16:42

I’m with Alex. I don’t agree with mixing the two types of turf. The only thing I can think is the architect was shying away from a monoculture. Sugggesting two types of turf thinking that if anything bad happpened one turf may survive. However, with the vast differences in the turf It would seem the two were only slightly compatable.

I would pick one based on your mowing, care level, soil types, and desired “look” in the end.

Good Luck………….

ted – posted 14 June 2004 21:30

no ted’s not in the sod business, he’s a 20 year veteran of the chemical lawn care business with a Master’s degree in Turf. no professional is going to seed bermuda, it’s strictly a sodded grass, as warm season grasses are. I’ve seeded 1500-2000 lawns, and never, ever once seeded bermuda.

grassnut – posted 15 June 2004 00:02

My apologies, I didn’t realize that you were an expert in warm season turf grass. I guess someone should let Pennington Seed know that they’re wasting their time. These guys (http://www.seedswest.com/wstrp.htm) are wasting their time as well. I do have a few questions though. If you are such an expert in warm season turf and you have seeded 1500-2000 lawns, what type of seed did you use? Do you honestly think that Bermuda can’t be established from seed? I own a hydroseeding business in Texas and that’s 95% of the seed we plant. You can get a beautiful lawn from Bermuda seed and with Princess 77, you can have hybrid Bermuda (similar to Tif 419) from seed as well. I don’t mean to sound like as ass, but it really bothers me that someone would say that Bermuda is only available in sod. That’s just not true. Bermuda is easily established from seed at a much lower price than sod.

ted – posted 15 June 2004 15:04

Finally the truth comes out! now it looks like you’re the one with a business to push, huh? i think what you’re needing to clarify is that home lawns are generally not hydroseeded, particularly in Texas. Hydroseeding in Texas is primarily done for commercial projects where the quality is not paramount, like state highway right of ways, etc. etc. Any homeowner in major Texas cities would definitely opt for sodding. Our company has performed over 100,000 lawn applications in seven southern states, and i have yet to see any successful, homeowner quality hydroseeding. From Austin, to San Antonio, to Houston, I have never seen hydroseeding used in residential lawns, they’re all sodded, period.

seed – posted 15 June 2004 21:53

There is seed. There are sprigs. There is sod.

Bermudagrass turf has been commonly planted from seed since the 1920s; I’ve bought common bermudagrass seed at the hardware store. The varieties of bermudagrass available in seed, mostly so-called “Common,” tend to be very coarse and open in growth habit, suitable for roadsides, not for athletic turf or lawns. And the vegetatively propagated Tifton varieties of bermudagrass, such as Tifway, that were developed from the 1950s to 1990s, were so much better in density and wear tolerance and weed competition, that the seeded varieties were comparatively very poor.

By the 1970s the seed companies were actively developing seeded bermudagrasses, and by the 1990s some were comparable in overall turfgrass quality with the vegetative varieties. Dr. Arden Baltensperger of New Mexico State University and his associates finally overcame the technical problems of developing a genetically homogeneous seed crop with excellent turf performance. Princess 77 is derived from that effort.

Meanwhile, Tifway (419) bermudagrass was suffering probable quality control problems on several sod farms, where offtype bermudagrass were sometimes observed, and in some cases associated with offtypes on planted areas. That was combined with the relatively slow growing nature of Tifway to allow it to be badly infested by Common types.

Today there is a larger pallete of both vegetative varieties (e.g. Celebration, Tifsport, and the older Tifway) and several new seeded types (e.g., Princess 77). In general, the seeded types are slow to germinate, and very prone to weed problems during establishment, compared with sprigging, but they are definitely in the running as turf.

Phil

grassnut – posted 15 June 2004 22:34

Phil,

Thanks for the information. The point I was trying to make is that there are options when it comes to Bermuda. You don’t have to use sod in order to have a nice lawn and you don’t have to spend your kid’s college fund in doing so. If you want to sod, then you should. If you want to seed, then do that. People should be aware of their options and they should choose what’s right for them.

cohiba – posted 16 June 2004 14:02

In general, regardless of species or variety, I feel that seed is the better choice for overall long term health of the lawn. Sod has its obvious advantages but a well seeded lawn, on properly prepared soil, will out do a sodded lawn in the years to come. In some cases the seeded lawn may take a full year or two to complete its establishment. But the results will be worth the wait. I have two plots, identical soil, both prepared with soil tests and lime added. Plot #1 was seeded in August of 2002. No Irrigation! Never been watered other than by mother nature. We used a very good seed blend of 40% Perennial Ryegrass and 60% Midnight Bluegrass. Plot # 2 was sodded with Bluegrass in June of 2003. Has irrigation, was established and knitted quickly. I have more problems with plot #2. More weeds, very little diease and insects, but will not stay green without large amounts of water and fert. Plot #1 gets 2 lbs. of fert per season, Plot 2 needs atleast 4.5 lbs., to keep it going, annually.

I try to seed all I can. I feel that the most critical part of the job and the descision is timing.

If it were August through November I would seed.

December thru February, sod.

March through May, seed. With the knowledge that you will seed again in September.

June through August neither.

Just my two cents.

Great info seed, thanks………

ted – posted 16 June 2004 20:40

yeah, i think we’re still hung up on the cool season vs. warm season grasses. i would definitely recommend seeding in the transition zone and in cooler climates. it’s just not worth the price difference for the sod. In the major southern markets like Atlanta and Dallas, if you want Bermuda , at least in my customer base, it’s going to be sodded. In Texas and Florida, you’re going to be sodding primarily. I think the original question was what to do in a homeowner lawn, and generally they want a little more quality.

Switchman – posted 26 June 2004 14:26

My question is why would we all not use Zoysiagrass instead? I understand it grows super slow and feels soft and looks green most of the time. I have read it only needs mowing up to every 5 years? What can you Grass Seed & Sod experts tell me about that? I live in South Florida (Zone 10) and I am planning an irrigation system.Any information or advice, good or bad will be helpful.

Alex_in_FL – posted 27 June 2004 07:51

Switchman:

Zoysia is a wonderful grass. Too bad some folks put out misinformation like you have received.

I live in central FL. Mow every 4-6 days due to having Floratam. If just zoysia then I would mow about every 6-8 days.

In Alabama I never had any problems with zoysia (see other posts for experiences my Dad had trying to “help” it grow better). Here in FL billbugs have been an issue. You will need to watch for them.

The new zoysias are soft – if you keep them watered. They take less water than Floratam. I need to water the Floratam areas 1 day before the zoysia needs watering.

I love zoysia but others like Floratam and others bermuda. My best friend has bermuda and loved it. I don’t like Floratam because of fungus problems and it is chinchbug bait. However, I am now fighting billbugs.

Alex(A secret is something you tell one person at a time).

[This message has been edited by Alex_in_FL (edited 27 June 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Alex_in_FL (edited 27 June 2004).]

ted – posted 27 June 2004 16:38

there’s nothing wrong with zoysia sod-just make sure it’s a fit for your area- i’m not 100% sure it is in south florida. i would refer to seed, our editor, on this issue. as for the every 5 years mowing, there’s one born every minute!!!!

grassboy – posted 02 May 2008 18:00

as you research it will be noted that most burmuda requires full sun to promote growth. might take a look at your selected grass for compatability with shade.

rickster – posted 07 September 2013 12:41

It is correct to say it’s not smart to mix Bermuda and St. Augustine. You either do Bermuda or St. Augustine. The choice is up to you want. If you choose St. Augustine, plan on water more often. It is a water hog compared to Bermuda. On the other hand, Bermuda is a good looking grass. But, when it goes dormant it turns brown quicker.On the seed, it does take some time for Bermuda to germinated. St. Augustine doesn’t take as long. You either want a Bermuda lawn that is thick or a ST Augustine lawn that is not nearly as thick and is a water hog.

rickster – posted 07 September 2013 13:01

It’s not a good idea to have Bermuda and St. Augustine in the same yard. It looks shabby. You either do Bermuda or St. Augustine.Both Bermuda and St. Augustine have a disadvantage. Bermuda takes a while to seed and ST. Augustine is a water hog and is not nearly as thick a grass as Bermuda. Bermuda can be a pest because it is an aggressive grower.So, do not knock one or the other. Like they say, Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.