St.Augustine problems

ptzgrl – posted 18 March 2004 22:31

I live in an eastern Los Angeles, California suburb, my front and back yard lawns are St.Augustine, well established at least 10 plus years. This past fall I neglected to winterize or fertilize or do anything to it except mow it. In January, I noticed some weeds coming up and in a panic I applied a Scotts weed and feed without identifying the weeds. Now it’s the middle of March, and my front yard is a nice deep green with some healthy dallisgrass and medium sized patches of bermuda invasion. My backyard lawn is still struggling to get green, and it too has the medium sized patches of bermuda and dallisgrass. I was able to handpick the dallisgrass out, and that is under control for now. My dilemma is the bermuda. Can it be eradicated from St.Augustine? In my front lawn, I am game to try chemical warfare or whatever anyone has to suggest. However, in the backyard lawn, I have a turtle ready to come out of hibernation, and chemicals will be poisonous to the turtle.Would an application of stinky manure do the same trick as liquid or granuled fertilizer?Do I need to get rid of the bermuda first before any application of fertilizer? I was told by one local gardener to just pull it all out, St.Augustine and all, that’s the only way to get rid of the bermuda. Am I doomed from having a beautiful St.Augustine lawn anymore ??? Any and all suggestions are welcome, and thanks in advance.

Dchall_San_Antonio – posted 19 March 2004 09:07

You are resigned to use organic fertilizers to save your turtle. The turtle will LOVE you for this.

You don’t mention what you maintenance practices are so I’ll just take a shot at an improvement program to fix your bermuda. St Augustine should take out bermuda if you play your cards right. My neihbor across the street used to have a spot with 90% weak bermuda and 10% very weak St Augustine. It was a thin spot on the corner of her corner lot. I just thought that being the corner of a very popular dog walking route that the dogs were visiting the light pole and just leaving her an impossible mess. Today, after one season of organic fertilizer, that corner is more dense than any place else on her yard and 99.44% St Augustine. I attribute the density to the frequent visits by dogs to deposit their urea organic fertilizer. But the recovery gets attributed to her change in watering and mowing.

In addition she uses an organic fertilizer called Texas Tee (if you want to look it up on the Internet). The main ingredient of Texas Tee is feather meal. I’m starting to believe that feather meal might be as important as corn meal in organic gardening. Her lawn was the only one in town that remained actually growing all winter long. There were some lawns that went less dormant than others but none continued to grow. Hers is a huge exception. She used TT twice last year in the spring and fall. I still want to talk to her about her watering schedule.

Anyway, here’s the basic lawn care plan that should eradicate your bermuda. Note that this applies to St Augustine with bermuda mix. You cannot expect to eradicate a fescue from St Augustine. The mix with bermuda is key.

1. Water deeply and infrequently. Deeply means at least an hour in every zone, all at once. Infrequently means monthly during the cool months and no more than weekly during the hottest part of summer. If your grass looks dry before the month/week is up, water longer next time. Deep watering grows deep, drought resistant roots. Infrequent watering allows the top layer of soil to dry completely which kills off many shallow rooted weeds.

2. Mow at the highest setting on your mower. Most grasses are the most dense when mowed tall. Bermuda, centipede, and bent grasses are the most dense when mowed at the lowest setting on your mower. Dense grass shades out weeds and uses less water when tall. Dense grass feeds the deep roots you’re developing in 1 above.

3. Fertilize regularly. I fertilize 4 times per year using organic fertilizer. Which fertilizer you use is much less important than numbers 1 and 2 above.

The reason this program will eradicate bermuda is that you are mowing at the right height for St Augustine and the wrong height for bermuda. Tall St Aug gets denser and tall bermuda gets thinner, so the St Aug wins!

Dchall_San_Antonio – posted 19 March 2004 09:13

I forgot to mention stinky manure. Anything that stinks should never be applied to anything in your garden. If it stinks, it becomes an ingredient for your compost pile. Anything that stinks will smell sweet and fresh after a year in a good pile. THEN, you can use it on your yard.

I use corn meal as a fertilizer. I also use alfalfa pellets. The application rate is 10-20 pounds per 1,000 square feet. I get mine at a feed store for about $3.50 to $6.50 for a 50-pound bag. You may not know it but you have feed stores around to supply the horses in the Covina hills and around Pomona, Chino, Montclair, etc. Your turtle will love the alfalfa pellets and anything else you put out. Any ground grain, nut, seed, or bean is good to use. But it has to be ground unless you want a corn or cotton crop to come up in your yard. Whatever you can get for cheap at the feed store is good. Check you yellow pages for feed stores or horse supplies.

ptzgrl – posted 20 March 2004 09:45

I am so happy I could cry, but instead I will research out the organic fertilizer !!!I received both of your replies and will forever be grateful. Yes, I guess I did forget to mention my maintenence practices.They included all the mistakes you mentioned,i.e., mowing grass too short, no regular schedule of fertilizers, and shallow, frequent watering !!!!! No wonder ?!?!?!

Once again, thanks for your wisdom and knowledge. I will keep you all posted !Oh yes, my turtle thanks you too, in advance !!!

Rachel

quote:Originally posted by Dchall_San_Antonio:You are resigned to use organic fertilizers to save your turtle. The turtle will LOVE you for this. You don’t mention what you maintenance practices are so I’ll just take a shot at an improvement program to fix your bermuda. St Augustine should take out bermuda if you play your cards right. My neihbor across the street used to have a spot with 90% weak bermuda and 10% very weak St Augustine. It was a thin spot on the corner of her corner lot. I just thought that being the corner of a very popular dog walking route that the dogs were visiting the light pole and just leaving her an impossible mess. Today, after one season of organic fertilizer, that corner is more dense than any place else on her yard and 99.44% St Augustine. I attribute the density to the frequent visits by dogs to deposit their urea organic fertilizer. But the recovery gets attributed to her change in watering and mowing.

In addition she uses an organic fertilizer called Texas Tee (if you want to look it up on the Internet). The main ingredient of Texas Tee is feather meal. I’m starting to believe that feather meal might be as important as corn meal in organic gardening. Her lawn was the only one in town that remained actually growing all winter long. There were some lawns that went less dormant than others but none continued to grow. Hers is a huge exception. She used TT twice last year in the spring and fall. I still want to talk to her about her watering schedule.

Anyway, here’s the basic lawn care plan that should eradicate your bermuda. Note that this applies to St Augustine with bermuda mix. You cannot expect to eradicate a fescue from St Augustine. The mix with bermuda is key.

1. Water deeply and infrequently. Deeply means at least an hour in every zone, all at once. Infrequently means monthly during the cool months and no more than weekly during the hottest part of summer. If your grass looks dry before the month/week is up, water longer next time. Deep watering grows deep, drought resistant roots. Infrequent watering allows the top layer of soil to dry completely which kills off many shallow rooted weeds.

2. Mow at the highest setting on your mower. Most grasses are the most dense when mowed tall. Bermuda, centipede, and bent grasses are the most dense when mowed at the lowest setting on your mower. Dense grass shades out weeds and uses less water when tall. Dense grass feeds the deep roots you’re developing in 1 above.

3. Fertilize regularly. I fertilize 4 times per year using organic fertilizer. Which fertilizer you use is much less important than numbers 1 and 2 above.

The reason this program will eradicate bermuda is that you are mowing at the right height for St Augustine and the wrong height for bermuda. Tall St Aug gets denser and tall bermuda gets thinner, so the St Aug wins!

ted – posted 20 March 2004 21:22

i think you’ve both met your match!!!

ptzgrl – posted 21 March 2004 15:20

quote:Originally posted by ted:i think you’ve both met your match!!!

Yesireeee!!! I am in awe about the tips I received to take care of my lawns. Who knew???? All these years my old Dad used to maintain the lawns at our house, and he obviously knew what he was doing because I’ve never seen it with invasions of other grasses/weeds. He passed away last April, and I stepped up to the plate to take over. I quickly found out it takes more than just watering and mowing!

Once again, thanks to all responses !!!Rachel

ted – posted 21 March 2004 20:00

your bermuda is not going to die unless you use roundup ( pro strength) . this will enable you to resod the st. aug. sections or simply wait until the st. aug. takes over. this could take some time! since roundup is made from glyphosphate ( read: salt) it’s ok for your turtle. (glyphosphate is freqently used as a water stablizer in municipal water systems). same answer for the dallisgrass, but my question is: is it dallisgrass. rest of the fert. advice is sound provided you use quality turf fertilizers.

ptzgrl – posted 21 March 2004 22:03

quote:Originally posted by ted:your bermuda is not going to die unless you use roundup ( pro strength) . this will enable you to resod the st. aug. sections or simply wait until the st. aug. takes over. this could take some time! since roundup is made from glyphosphate ( read: salt) it’s ok for your turtle. (glyphosphate is freqently used as a water stablizer in municipal water systems). same answer for the dallisgrass, but my question is: is it dallisgrass. rest of the fert. advice is sound provided you use quality turf fertilizers.

Oooops!? After looking on the internet again to confirm, it is for sure bermuda, but the other is not dallisgrass. Looks more like “annual bluegrass” or poa annua because of the seeds at the end of the stems.Luckily these have been easy to pull out by hand, so far!!I am still working these little guys out of the flower beds too, and there are only a few coming back in the lawns. According to the info I researched, the poa annua should be minimized by summer ??? I can only hope so.

Thanks so much for the Roundup advice, the turtle really threw me for a loop as I tried to figure out how to battle the invading bermuda and poa annua !!!

ptzgrl – posted 25 March 2004 22:17

2. Mow at the highest setting on your mower. Most grasses are the most dense when mowed tall. Bermuda, centipede, and bent grasses are the most dense when mowed at the lowest setting on your mower. Dense grass shades out weeds and uses less water when tall. Dense grass feeds the deep roots you’re developing in 1 above.

I know this may sound silly, but exactly how do you measure the grass height? From the base of the blade, or from the soil the grass grows on?

[This message has been edited by ptzgrl (edited 25 March 2004).]

ted – posted 26 March 2004 13:46

measure it from the ground up. also, remember: don’t pull weeds- you never get the roots, spray them with roundup, particularly in the landscape beds. you’re right about the poa- your heat will probably get it, and the chemicals that will fix it you can’t buy and the turtle might not like.

ptzgrl – posted 05 April 2004 08:06

I’ve been researching the corn meal thing…some sites are calling it corn gluten, is that the same thing? They also sell feather meal by itself…but I think I would really like to try the Texas Tee. So far I can’t find it here in So.Calif, but I believe it is available by online order from (none other than)places in Texas! Would it help to aerate before applying the Tee or corn meal? Can both be applied? Corn meal to prevent further weed infest, and Tee to help get my grass strong and green again?Temps are staying in the mid to high 70’s for now, not too hot just yet. And I would guess a few more April showers. Thanks in advance.

quote:Originally posted by Dchall_San_Antonio:I forgot to mention stinky manure. Anything that stinks should never be applied to anything in your garden. If it stinks, it becomes an ingredient for your compost pile. Anything that stinks will smell sweet and fresh after a year in a good pile. THEN, you can use it on your yard.

I use corn meal as a fertilizer. I also use alfalfa pellets. The application rate is 10-20 pounds per 1,000 square feet. I get mine at a feed store for about $3.50 to $6.50 for a 50-pound bag. You may not know it but you have feed stores around to supply the horses in the Covina hills and around Pomona, Chino, Montclair, etc. Your turtle will love the alfalfa pellets and anything else you put out. Any ground grain, nut, seed, or bean is good to use. But it has to be ground unless you want a corn or cotton crop to come up in your yard. Whatever you can get for cheap at the feed store is good. Check you yellow pages for feed stores or horse supplies.

mcmdesign – posted 03 May 2005 15:07

I found this site and searched for “corn gluten” to find out more information and was very pleased to find your posts.

I applied corn gluten meal this spring and want to try it for a couple of years as a pre emergent and fertilizer. I ordered a brand called Safe Lawn from an organic lawncare place here in Kentucky. This was granular and spread very easily. I paid less for it than on many sites but thought I read in one of your posts that you can buy corn gluten meal at a lower price from feed stores. They probably have it here because this is horse country.

In some posts you mention corn gluten meal and then corn meal itself as a fertilizer. So the corn gluten is the one that will kill weeds and plain corn meal is used as a fertilizer or anti fungal, right?

quote:Originally posted by Dchall_San_Antonio:I use corn meal as a fertilizer. I also use alfalfa pellets. The application rate is 10-20 pounds per 1,000 square feet. I get mine at a feed store for about $3.50 to $6.50 for a 50-pound bag. You may not know it but you have feed stores around to supply the horses in the Covina hills and around Pomona, Chino, Montclair, etc. Your turtle will love the alfalfa pellets and anything else you put out. Any ground grain, nut, seed, or bean is good to use. But it has to be ground unless you want a corn or cotton crop to come up in your yard. Whatever you can get for cheap at the feed store is good. Check you yellow pages for feed stores or horse supplies.

ptzgrl – posted 13 May 2005 19:16

quote:Originally posted by mcmdesign:I found this site and searched for “corn gluten” to find out more information and was very pleased to find your posts.

I applied corn gluten meal this spring and want to try it for a couple of years as a pre emergent and fertilizer. I ordered a brand called Safe Lawn from an organic lawncare place here in Kentucky. This was granular and spread very easily. I paid less for it than on many sites but thought I read in one of your posts that you can buy corn gluten meal at a lower price from feed stores. They probably have it here because this is horse country.

In some posts you mention corn gluten meal and then corn meal itself as a fertilizer. So the corn gluten is the one that will kill weeds and plain corn meal is used as a fertilizer or anti fungal, right?

Hey friend “mcmdesign”…..I contacted the organic lawn guru on this site, Dchall San_Antonio_….and he provided this great info in response to your questions of corn meal and corn gluten meal…….check it out.This guy is awesome when it comes to organic solutions for your lawn….he knows his stuff. Thanks for finding the site, reading my entries and being interested !!!********************************************Corn gluten meal is both a high protein fertilizer and has been tested and found to prevent seeds from germinating and growing. At application rates of 10-20 pounds per 1,000 square feet it is a good fertilizer. At rates from 20-40 pounds per 1,000 it has the preemergent qualities. At these high rates it becomes way more powerful as a fertilizer.

Ordinary corn meal is a lower quality fertilizer and has pretty powerful antifungal disease properties. It promotes the beneficial fungi and kills the disease. For the past 3 years I have used ordinary corn meal as my normal fertilizer.

In Kentucky corn gluten meal is cheap. In Texas it is very expensive and ordinary corn meal is pretty cheap.

Hope that helps.

Dchall_San_Antonio – posted 13 May 2005 22:29

Okay, now I’ve closed the loop. Now I know who ptzgrl is and how she got my email address.

I left this list because of one of the regular unregistered contributors has a bad attitude about organics, refuses to try them, and then bad-mouths them from a perspective of ignorance. I see from recent posts that he hasn’t changed. Forums are a lot less fun when sarcastic abuse is tolerated. I know they’re less fun when preaching is tolerated, too, so I’ll stop and get on with this.

Anyway I thought, since it’s been a full year since I mentioned my neighbor across the street, that I could update y’all on her corner lot. Again last year she used Texas Tee twice and her gardener mowed the lawn, and got real grass clippings, every single week of the year. Meanwhile the rest of us poor slobs had dormant grass in November which turned brown in many yards. We’re all out of dormancy for about 6 weeks now and her lawn continues to grow “normally,” like it did all winter. The bermuda is completely gone on that problem corner. She had another problem to contend with that I didn’t mention. The previous owner used Chemlawn in her later years. The Chemlawn truck parked in the same spot every time. Apparently he had a leak in his hose or something, because there was one place adjacent to the truck that was extremely green at first and extremely dead for two years after the Chemlawn stopped. Bermuda moved in first but now it is completely restored to St Augustine. Rather than claim the credit for organics, I think proper watering and mowing allowed the St Aug to fill in there.