wilson – posted 14 July 2006 22:16
I wanted to get some opinions on a problem Im having with my St. Augustine grass. In April of 2004, I decided to renovate my front lawn. I live near Ft. Worth, Texas. I read some books and took my time with the project. I went to a small grass supplier in Bedford, TX for the sod. I was going to buy Raleigh St. Augustine, but I saw a brochure for the new Palmetto St. Augustine. The brochure from sod solutions convinced me to try it. I did, however, decide to split the yard with half Raleigh and half Palmetto. I did this to keep the cost down (Raleigh is cheaper), and I figured that if Palmetto is a stronger variety, it would eventually just takeover the entire yard. This grass was delivered to my house, and I spent the day meticulously laying the sod. Turned out that 2004 was a good year to plant new grass in north Texas. There was plenty of rain through spring and summer. The grass responded very well, and I was pleased with my new lawn. The next year, my grass started to green up again in the spring. The lawn was again looking great. Then my dad visited and spotted some areas of possible St. Augustine decline. I didnt believe it, and I just figured that it was time to fertilize soon. Now this year, the lawn is again growing well. Unfortunately, I have seen more areas of grass with spotted blades. I have closely inspected the blades, and I have done some research on the internet. The grass indeed has the classic mottled appearance of SAD, and the infected areas are limited to where I laid the Palmetto. The Raleigh is fine with no sign of the disease! Last May, I contacted the supplier that sold me the grass. The lady there didnt seem too surprised that my Palmetto has SAD. She wouldnt give me any assistance with the problem I now have. Obviously, Im disappointed that the premium grass I bought has an incurable disease. I again reviewed the Palmetto brochure from sod solutions. Although the brochure touts Palmetto as a superior grass, it cleverly omits any reference to St. Augustine decline. I did some more research on the internet, and I found this website:
Grassguy – posted 14 July 2006 23:04
Depending on your financial investment amount in the Palmetto it may be worth pursuing legally. In my opinion the sale was deceptive and misleading. full disclosure should of been there concerning the SAD volnurablity. Raleigh is SAD resistant, so is Floratam and seville. Just plug the ares and get it going again. Call the place you purchased the Palmetto from and tell them you are considering charging them with fraud and see how they respond. of course you have to prove it was a deliberate act but if the place selling the sod is a turf purveyor they had to know it was not SAD resistant.
TexanOne – posted 14 July 2006 23:56
That was a very interesting and informative post Wilson. Until I read your post, I was under the belief that Palmetto was SAD resistant. Hmmm
You probably have a good case against the supplier but the question is how much time and money do you want to invest pursuing legal action? As a suggestion, I would call the supplier to come out to the site, show him or her the proof of SAD, and then request a total refund of the money that was spent on the Palmetto. Hopefully, the supplier is local or you will probably have to submit samples. If the supplier is reputable (and almost all are), and you remain calm but firmly insistent, the supplier should not have any qualms about giving you a complete refund. I would pursue legal action as a matter of last resort, or if the supplier tells you to take a hike (or worse!). Id bet a buck it wont come to that though It will probably take several months to a couple of years before the SAD completely wipes out the Palmetto but it will most certainly be dead soon thats a fact of SAD. In the meanwhile, the Raleigh will spread fast enough to cover the SAD-infected Palmetto. I have experience with Raleigh and it is highly probable the Raleigh will remain SAD free. Raleigh has been recommended for years as a patch / plug-in replacement for an existing SAD infected St Augustine yard.
In my opinion, Raleigh is a better choice anyway. There is almost 30 years of history behind it. The only Raleigh issue you may have to deal with in the DFW area is cold tolerance. About every 10 20 years, a sub-zero freeze will come through and reduce your Raleigh to a yard of dead sticks. Other than that, Raleigh is an excellent, proven choice.
jr – posted 15 July 2006 12:08
both of you are idiots. the supplier isn’t liable because this guy’s grass caught a disease a year later, nor is it the supplier’s responsibility to disclose every potential problem that could occur with the grass. we aren’t talking about buying real estate here. this guy should have done his research beforehand, instead of relying on a sales brochure to make his decision, for heaven’s sake. and if you want to go making threats or demands on the grower, they are going to tell you the same thing. the sod obviously didn’t leave their farm with SAD. you think they are going to go around replacing sod for free for everybody who manages to kill it one way or another? that’s not why they are in business. to assert they actively committed fraud in selling him a variety of grass they grew without mentioning the obvious (it might catch SAD or some other disease)is patently absurd. by that logic merely propagating palmetto sod for the purpose of selling it would be a criminal act.
TexanOne – posted 15 July 2006 13:37
Yeah JR I guess I am an idiot. I only spent 30 years involved in the Texas Civil Court system and heard hundreds of complaints similar to what Wilson is going through. If you think he doesnt have a case in the State of Texas, I would submit you dont have a clue of what you are talking about.
Wilson, if the supplier in question has a similar attitude as JR, and you spent less than $5,000 on the Palmetto, please immediately contact your appropriate local Tarrant County Justice of the Peace Court and file a civil complaint in small claims court. I will assure you a judge will hear your case. nuff said
jr – posted 15 July 2006 14:19
glad you agree with me texanone. i dont know what your involvement with the texas civil court system was, but i would submit it was as a janitor. i’ve never had a problem beating back a lawsuit by an ignorant customer who was trying to blame me for their own poor planning, ignorance, or just plain bad luck, and that is what wilson’s problem is.
TexanOne – posted 15 July 2006 14:33
Well good for you JR I can tell that you are certainly much more informed and clever than anyone else here.
Maybe the next time you purchase a defective vehicle, bad appliance, or rotten food that makes you sick, the person that sold it to you will have equal success at fighting you off.
However and notwithstanding, I did learn enough from my janitor career to know better than to waste my time wrestling with a pig.
jodyB – posted 15 July 2006 16:48
As a sod producer in another state,may I offer this info.There are some growers who will not sell Palmetto in the heat of the year for just that reason.It picks-up diseases quickly in hot weather.We try to discourage buyers from laying it.Did you apply a fungicide in a timely manner?Believe me,if you went through a summer without using it,that is certainly your problem,not the suppliers.If the sod survived laying and started growing,the rest is up to you.He supplied with a viable product,the rest is up to you.
Grassguy – posted 15 July 2006 17:07
where do individuals such as JR come from? with comments of a dilettantish nature hoping to be someone someday but is continually dissapointed by their shortcomings and lack of ability to comprehend and understand. JR probobly lives on a Lulus area. JR, learn to get along with others and play nice so you may evolve above the Pusillanimous you currently suffer under.
TexanOne – posted 15 July 2006 17:41
JodyB, whats your opinion about Palmettos resistance to SAD? I planted a sizable part of my yard with Palmetto last year and it hasnt done very well the heat seems to knock it back badly in full sun.
jr – posted 15 July 2006 17:45
Grassboy, if I read other posts of yours correctly, you are either still in college, or just getting out. I’ve already done that, started a business, and attained the credentials of ISA certified arborist and PCO in lawn and ornamental and termite in Florida. You have a long way to go before you ever come close to being my equal, and your nonsensical remarks with your flowery language about me don’t get you any closer. Also, I believe Jody made my point about the original issue here.
wilson – posted 15 July 2006 18:47
Thanks for the replies. I noticed a link to the Palmetto brochure at the top of this webpage. I looked at the brochure yet again, and I see a disclaimer at the bottom. I don’t think I have any legal options for a refund. I spent about $250 for the Raleigh and about $280 for the Palmetto. This isn’t devestating, and I’m sure I can fix the problem using Raleigh plugs.
I did want to get the word out about Palmetto. Everyone I talk to is quite surprised that I have St. Augustine decline in a new lawn. This was a problem in Texas back in the 70’s. After Raleigh was developed, SAD is now rare. Anyway, sod solutions says “Palmetto St. Augustine has demonstrated superior disease tolerance”. And I say it hasn’t.
Grassguy – posted 16 July 2006 14:13
JR, All that training and all you can come up with is calling someone an idiot? (thats the mark of a professional)You better cut back from a 12 pack to a 6 pack a day. You my friend are a legend in your own mind. you are high on your self in a narcissistic way. Dont let my flowery remarks hurt your feelings, afterall you have no clue what any of it means anyway. I apoligize to other forum followers but I wont stand by and let a Belligerent stranger call me an idiot.
Grassguy – posted 16 July 2006 14:44
wilson, every thing I have studied and read have no mention of Palmetto being SAD resistant. I guess this day and time you cant rely on (claims) anyone but yourself.
jr – posted 16 July 2006 17:52
I had a lot more to say than pointing out your ignorance, but apparently you were so insulted by the word idiot that you lost your ability to read after that. Learn to spell while you’re at it. That’s about the only problem I have understanding you. Plus, you were still wrong, so get over yourself already, child.
TexanOne – posted 16 July 2006 18:56
I was going to drop this, but:
Its ok Grassguy, he called me the same thing too. Although JR claims to have some credentials that are of some importance to himself, I did notice he left out the most important ones a man can have:
1: He does not claim to have any insight in the importance of interpersonal relationships.
2: He has failed miserably to learn common respect, manners, and all aspects of social graces.
3: He is a scared little boy that never knew how to make and keep friends.
4: He never learned how to disagree in a civil manner, does not respect anyone whose opinions differ from his, and can only find bravery in indiscriminately hurling insults to perfect strangers all via the comfort and security of remaining anonymous.
Does it really matter and does anyone really care if you know how to poison termites or prune trees if you lack common sense and decency? How pathetic
I hope and pray that JR will soon find healing for his troubled mind. After all, you have already been forgiven
Grassguy – posted 16 July 2006 19:44
eloquently spoken TexanOne..
Tungsten – posted 25 July 2006 21:21
wow…
Palmetto with SAD! I live near Ft Worth as well. Hmmm… So far i don’t have any problem but then again I mow my lawn with my own mower.
It seems that it’s the lawn services that spread it around along with harmful fungi… apparently that’s what might have happened to my mom’s lawn! She lives too far away for me to maintain her lawn regularly. Oh well…
[This message has been edited by Tungsten (edited 25 July 2006).]
acambre – posted 29 August 2006 21:51
quote:I did some more research on the internet, and I found this website:
Hello. I am the person whose site you quoted. I laid my grass in early September 2004, well after the heat of the year. I have to admit that for now, the appearance of SAD has diminished but has not 100% gone away. I don’t have huge patches of SAD, but I do have areas here and there with the spotted appearance. I don’t know if SAD’s visible manifestations are more prominent in cooler weather?
Aren Cambre
TexanOne – posted 30 August 2006 01:58
Actually the symptoms of SAD appear most evident during hot weather. Heat stress, lack of rainfall, or any stressful condition seems to accelerate the disease. The latest research from TAMU also stated an insect vector is now believed to be the cause of most SAD cases but there is still much that is not understood about the disease.
SAD infected lawns will respond to feeding and care, but the inevitable result will be a gradual thinning of the turf with invasion of other, and probably unwanted turfgrass types and weeds in 2 to 5 years. For the North Texas area, Raleigh St Augustine is currently your only SAD-free option, but it too has some temporary yellowing problems during the high summer heat of Texas.
acambre – posted 30 August 2006 21:19
quote:Originally posted by TexanOne:Actually the symptoms of SAD appear most evident during hot weather. Heat stress, lack of rainfall, or any stressful condition seems to accelerate the disease. The latest research from TAMU also stated an insect vector is now believed to be the cause of most SAD cases but there is still much that is not understood about the disease.
SAD infected lawns will respond to feeding and care, but the inevitable result will be a gradual thinning of the turf with invasion of other, and probably unwanted turfgrass types and weeds in 2 to 5 years. For the North Texas area, Raleigh St Augustine is currently your only SAD-free option, but it too has some temporary yellowing problems during the high summer heat of Texas.
Interesting. My SAD symptoms have reduced greatly since the spring. Is it possible for fungal infestations to look like SAD in certain cases? A good amount of my grass–both new and old–has that appearance where yellow stripes are running down the blade.
TexanOne – posted 02 September 2006 23:27
Yes it is very possible to mistake other diseases for SAD downy mildew being the most notable. SAD affects all parts of the infected St Augustine plant, young and old leaves alike. Downy mildew affects older leaves while the younger leaves and stolons are still healthy. Downy mildew is commonly misdiagnosed as SAD:
acambre – posted 05 September 2006 19:25
quote:Originally posted by TexanOne:Yes it is very possible to mistake other diseases for SAD downy mildew being the most notable. SAD affects all parts of the infected St Augustine plant, young and old leaves alike. Downy mildew affects older leaves while the younger leaves and stolons are still healthy. Downy mildew is commonly misdiagnosed as SAD:
Thanks. I do seem to have more of this in shaded areas than the sunny areas. If it is downy mildew, is it ultimately a self-correcting situation?
TexanOne – posted 05 September 2006 23:53
I dont know if downy mildew is self-correcting or not. One of the most important aspects of St Augustine culture in the Metroplex is making sure the St Augustine is in good enough shape to take on a potentially cold and severe winter because your area is very near the northern edge of St Augustine limits. The winter of 1983-1984 was the last time most St Augustine throughout Texas from San Antonio northward was almost completely wiped out by sub-freezing (and sub-zero) cold for several weeks on end. Even healthy St Augustine died during that winter.
After a normal winter each spring in North Texas, there are some St Augustine yards that dont come out of dormancy, or come back spotty and weak. Many of the affected lawns were weakened during the previous summer from a whole host of problems with fungal problems being one of the major culprits. Yellow Patch / Take All Root Rot are also major contributors to significant winter St Augustine loss which are also fungal related. The grass is just too weak to survive even a mild winter.
I do think that one of the problems with any fungal disease is that it may spread rapidly in the right environment, such as cool, wet, rainy conditions in fall, which may greatly weaken the St Augustine. I would also think it would be reasonable to assume the fungi would over winter in dormant sod to return the following year even if you did have winter survival.
Downy mildew is easily controlled with fungicides containing Mancozeb (trade name Fore), or other fungicides containing Fosetyl-Al, or Metalaxyl. You can apply the fungicides yourself, or have a lawn service contractor spray it for you preferably one that knows what they are doing and at the correct mixtures. I have found a contractor locally that knows what hes doing, does an excellent job, and treats my St Augustine for $35 / 1000 sq ft using Fore fungicide. Downy mildew has been especially severe this year for some reason in West Texas.
Some folks swear by cornmeal as a remedy, but I dont know anything about using it. One of the more common natural methods of fungal control that seems to work for Texas conditions is to use peat moss spread at a rate of 3.8 cu ft / 1000 sq ft. I use a mixture of peat moss, composted cow manure (80 lbs / 1000 sq ft), and ammonium fertilizer 21-0-0 with 24% sulphur (1 lb of nitrogen / 1000 sq ft) to create a more acidic condition that really keeps Yellow Patch and TARR in check.
hankhill – posted 06 September 2006 00:10
What’s your opinion of Myclobutanil-basedgranular fungicides? It’s one of the fewthat’s labeled for TakeAll Patch.
With the dropping temps, I’m starting tosee some circular-ish areas that looklike fungus. (Yes, TAP isn’t circular,I was just commenting on its strength.)
[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited 06 September 2006).]
TexanOne – posted 06 September 2006 23:11
I havent tried granular fungicides so I really cant say one way or another.
As it was explained to me, water-based fungicides are better because they will coat the entire plant if applied properly during application. At some point in time, the granular fungicides will have to dissolve in order to attack the fungal infection.
This is just my opinion, but I would tend to believe the granular types would be more effective on a tight-knit, low growing turfgrass like Tif-Bermuda because you are only talking about ¼ or so from soil level to the top of the plant. With a course, 3 high St Augustine, how would the granular types be effective if it just simply falls several inches down to the soil/thatch layer (and away from the active infection) waiting to be dissolved?
Just my opinion, but do you see the logic behind the opinion? The only advantage of the granular types that I can see is cost. The liquid-based fungicides generally are not cheap, but they are effective.
hankhill – posted 07 September 2006 23:02
My understanding is that myclobutanil issystemic–it’s absorbed by the plant andtranslocated through it (like roundup).The fungus then can’t chow down on the grass.
I’ll report back how it worked.
BTW, it’s quite expensive, even thoughit’s granular–more expensive than granularinsecticides and fertilizers. Not onlyis it more expensive for a small 10lb bag,you also have to crank up the spreaderto a high setting according to the label.
The only saving grace is that, unlikeinsecticide, fertilizer, and pre-emergent,you don’t have to blanket the lawn with it.(At least I don’t; I wait until I seea circular area, and then put it down.)
A circular or “crescent moon” area is a deadgiveaway for a fungus, IIRC.
TexanOne – posted 08 September 2006 01:00
Yes, Id like to know how it works out for you hankhill. I have only tried the contact types not the systemics.
I try to avoid any systemics because the St Augustine is growing under pecan trees, but there are other areas that I could use it.
TexanOne – posted 15 September 2006 01:07
Last year I planted about 100 sq ft of Palmetto. The plan was to have it take over a 1000 sq ft area of thin, sick Zenith Zoysia in the back yard.
The entire Palmetto planting is now showing very severe St Augustine Decline symptoms. At first, I thought the mottling symptoms might be downy mildew and I treated the Palmetto with fungicides without no effect.
If anyone is planning on sodding Palmetto in a known SAD infected area, I would recommend you consider otherwise it is NOT resistant!
hankhill – posted 15 September 2006 02:23
Wow, no way I’m going to use Palmetto now!How do I identify the variant I have?It was installed by the homebuilder, so it’sprobably the lowest price variant–raleigh?(Austin area)
(I was thinking of using it for itssuperior root structure, but no more!)
TexanOne – posted 15 September 2006 15:51
I dont know of any way to tell St Augustine varieties apart without an expensive DNA test.
The variety you have will depend much on when the home was built and when the sod was laid down. Heres an informative St Augustine page that indicates when some of the varieties were released:
hankhill – posted 15 September 2006 22:54
Doesn’t the “inode” separation on the stolons(distance between shoots) help identifythe variant?
TexanOne – posted 16 September 2006 00:39
I suppose it could but personally, I dont think so. Ive seen wide variation in internode length within the same plant much less the variety. In almost all SA varieties I have seen, the internode length will vary by a very wide margin within the same variety. I know that Sod Solutions states the internode length of Palmetto to be 19.1mm. I havent actually measured the internode length of the Palmetto in my yard, but I would estimate many of the stolon internodes are easily >30mm.
I have however noticed their does seem to be some consistency within a variety in stolon internode width and color. Palmetto seems to be fairly consistent with an internode width of 4.1mm / dark green color. Texas Common has a very narrow internode width more like 1.5mm with a light green color. This is all my conjecture and there is nothing I can find in research documents to back up my idea. Then again, internode length width, length, and color may be influenced by nothing more than local / regional environmental conditions. Who knows?
Im convinced that there are probably dozens, if not hundreds of different Texas Common sub-varieties growing throughout yards in Texas and the Southeast USA some of which are naturally SAD-resistant. All of these sub-varieties are yet to be discovered for commercial development.
If you are fortunate enough to have an unknown St Augustine variety that doesnt have the PMV-SAD virus in an area of known infection, consider yourself one of the lucky ones!
hankhill – posted 16 September 2006 01:52
Too bad your Supergrass (see the thread “New St. Augustine Grass Varieties”)doesn’t have SAD resistance in its collection of superpowers! (i.e. MSMA tolerance,cold tolerance, catcus-like water requirements, etc).
Perhaps you can get a big area sodded with it in an isolated location, and thenintentionally infect it with SAD. Whatever survives will be resitant…
[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited 16 September 2006).]
TexanOne – posted 16 September 2006 11:06
Essentially that is what has already happened but it happened about 15 20 years ago. What survives today has been and is still infected, but the infection doesnt seem to cause any real harm.
The problem is, who would want St Augustine grass with a known SAD-infection? I sure wouldnt. However, it continues to thrive, spread, need little water, and look good.
There is a lot of university research that explores the infection vectors and virology of SAD, but little or no research regarding infected St Augustine types where the disease causes no real damage. The SAD virus ran rampant through this area about 20 years ago and most SA yards eventually died out from cold, insects, etc (the virus itself is not fatal). There were several that survived and continued to thrive mine was one of them. Most of the SA yards that didnt survive were sodded with Raleigh, which is still king of the SA grass here.
wilson – posted 22 September 2006 19:59
Update – the blades of the palmetto grass are now heavily mottled / spotted. The grass has not started to thin yet. Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find any raleigh plugs. I think raleigh is sold out for the year, and I’ll have to wait until next spring.
acambre – posted 22 September 2006 20:22
I have posted more pictures of my grass at
acambre – posted 22 September 2006 20:50
By the way, Mr. TexanOne, if you want an ultimate test of your St. Augustine, send some to me and I’ll see how it works in the crappiest yard in Dallas! 🙂
TexanOne – posted 23 September 2006 14:18
I dont know acambre, those photos look like a classic case of St Augustine Decline if I ever saw one. One of the early symptoms of SAD is the green-ribbed chlorotic leafs with the green strips running the length of blade. You also have a good case of grey leaf spot fungus chewing on the Palmetto.
If its any consolation, I planted Palmetto in my SAD infected yard in 2005 and almost all the Palmetto is now showing full-blown SAD infection. I have since transplanted Raleigh to eventually take over the sick and dying Palmetto. Last week, when I went to buy more Raleigh from the local sod vendor, he told me he quit handling Palmetto altogether. He wouldnt say why, but he did say many of the growers / suppliers in Texas have stopped shipping Palmetto indefinitely go figure
If you want some of my St Augustine, you are welcome to it. Its unmarketable, so what the heck. I have an 18-plug tray of it ready to go that needs to be planted before it freezes in a few weeks anyway. It is also SAD-infected, but it has been handling the effects of the virus for 15 or 20 years with no problem. The infection is really hard to locate (<1% of the leafs show symptoms) and only appears from September until it goes dormant in the winter. Seeing that you probably already have a SAD infection going on, what could it hurt to try it? In the Metroplex area, it may even be able to survive and thrive on natural rainfall. Its actually a very good-looking, dwarf St Augustine and grows much tighter and lower than Palmetto with a dark bluish-green color.
acambre – posted 23 September 2006 15:30
quote:Originally posted by TexanOne:I dont know acambre, those photos look like a classic case of St Augustine Decline if I ever saw one. One of the early symptoms of SAD is the green-ribbed chlorotic leafs with the green strips running the length of blade. You also have a good case of grey leaf spot fungus chewing on the Palmetto.
If its any consolation, I planted Palmetto in my SAD infected yard in 2005 and almost all the Palmetto is now showing full-blown SAD infection. I have since transplanted Raleigh to eventually take over the sick and dying Palmetto. Last week, when I went to buy more Raleigh from the local sod vendor, he told me he quit handling Palmetto altogether. He wouldnt say why, but he did say many of the growers / suppliers in Texas have stopped shipping Palmetto indefinitely go figure
If you want some of my St Augustine, you are welcome to it. Its unmarketable, so what the heck. I have an 18-plug tray of it ready to go that needs to be planted before it freezes in a few weeks anyway. It is also SAD-infected, but it has been handling the effects of the virus for 15 or 20 years with no problem. The infection is really hard to locate (<1% of the leafs show symptoms) and only appears from September until it goes dormant in the winter. Seeing that you probably already have a SAD infection going on, what could it hurt to try it? In the Metroplex area, it may even be able to survive and thrive on natural rainfall. Its actually a very good-looking, dwarf St Augustine and grows much tighter and lower than Palmetto with a dark bluish-green color.
Can you contact me? aren@cambre.biz