jrjazzman – posted 21 August 2005 16:28
I have common bermuda in Dallas, TX area that I would like to “replace” with one of the hybrid seeded varieties like BlackJack, Triangle, etc. Is it possible to overseed and have the new variety establish well? I use a rotary mower that goes down to 1.25″. I’m hoping that mowing on this setting will favor the new variety.
I guess another option is to roundup the entire yard before seeding. Not sure that I’d want to do this though unless it’s the only vialbe option.
thanks
QWERTY – posted 23 August 2005 09:19
That’s a tough call because you WILL have common bermuda grass seeds. They don’t tend to work too well with improved bermuda grasses. go to
Friend – posted 23 August 2005 10:00
You will have to start all over to get a bermuda grass yard that you are talking about.
over seeding will not do you any good.
you will need to water your yard to get the grass growing good then use roundup, wait 10 days or so then scalp your yard and water heavy to get any grass that you did not kill growing again, then hit it with roundup again, bermuda grass comes back from the roots, then some were around the 15th of september over seed your yard with rye grass for the winter. then in may kill everything with roundup again. then prep your yard to get a good seed bed then plant your choice of bermuda grass. and keep it wet for the first 14 days and apply a organic program to your yard and make your soil healthy.
mwhite125 – posted 23 August 2005 11:48
Hello, I too live in Dallas area and bought a new house with cheap common bermuda, I overseeded with Sahara ceritfied seed that you can get at HomeDepot, watered heavily everyday and I have the best lawn on the street. Use good fert’s though, like Lesco 18-24-12 to get the seeds going. Dont waste your time with other ferts. THeres a Lesco in Plano,TX off of Jupiter Road. Im pushing my bermuda this year but will be going to Organic ferts next season.
QWERTY – posted 24 August 2005 12:30
Mwhite,
Good luck with your bermuda grasses. They are invasive and I’m not liking them too much. Just as I’m done edging (i live on a corner lot with the sidewalk), new runners are out already!
I’m used to St Augustine and I can tell you that they are much more manageable when it comes to maintaining a garden or flower bed.
I’m planning on killing bermuda front yard with round up in a week or so after growing them to 2 inches tall for maximum effective and plant rye grass seeds. Beyond that, I haven’t decided whether I want to sod the front yard with Palmetto St Augustine or seed with Yukon or Riveria bermuda seeds which is a lot less expensive. Palmetto will stay green much longer into the cool weather and green up before bermuda in the spring which is the biggest reason for wanting it. I guess it all boils down whether i’m willing to pay that much and sod them (5-6 pallets) myself. I did that for the backyard earlier this summer. Not so much fun…
mwhite125 – posted 24 August 2005 13:45
Your going to plant Rye?? Is this going to be for winter or what, its too early to overseed rye for the winter. Rye is a very cool season grass, even fescue burns out in full sun here in the Summer. I wouldnt try either IMO. I have bermuda mix in front and sides, and Empire Zoysia in tha back.
QWERTY – posted 24 August 2005 14:36
yes for the winter. I’ve grown them before and they look very nice in the middle of the winter where there’s not much green anywhere else. I just needed something to hold the soil together through the winter before putting in new grasses in the spring. I don’t want to wait till next june to start over when bermuda starts to really grow (most effective for using round up). That’s at least 2 months difference for St Augustine (sodding) and one month for bermuda (seeding). I’ve never grown tall fescue before. I think i’ve seen one at one house in my subdivision and they look awful in the middle of the summer (full sun). I could be wrong though. I’ll have to wait till nov or dec to see if that’s really tall fescue. The guys who put bermuda sods before I moved into the new house did crappy job. They didn’t bother to remove big rocks . They threw them right on the top of the rocks. When the dirt settled down after watering, there were a lot of bumps in my front yard and I was pretty pissed. I’ve dug out 2 rocks that probably weighed 150-200lbs! It’s just very annoying seeing scalped spots all over the front yard. Stupid people….
jrjazzman – posted 25 August 2005 09:45
Thanks for all the replies. I’m leaning toward not doing anything. I don’t think I’ll be in this house for more than a few more years, so I’m not sure it’d be worth the effort. Too bad overseeding isn’t effective.
Qwerty: I have a bumpy sod job similar to yours. Have you tried topdressing with sand or some kind of sand/compost mix? I think if this is done a couple of times a year supposedly things start to level out. If you have big depressions you’d probably have to manually fill those. Topdressing would take too long. I’ve been wanting to do a compost topdressing for soil health reasons. I just don’t know how to go about spreading compost on 10K sq. ft. of lawn.
turfrus – posted 25 August 2005 13:42
You do what I did and haul in 50 cu. yds. or so of horse manure or such, till it in, use a boxblade with scarifying teeth to open up and then smooth the soil and plant Zoysia which is the best choice for your area. Or sow a new improved common Bermuda blend of seed called “La Prima”, or Yukon. I just sodded with ‘Jamur’ Zoysia after giving up on my Zenith zoysia seed project. Jamur is an incredibly hardy and good looking Zoysia….loves shade too and all kinds of soil conditions. Cheap at $100/pallet.
turfrus – posted 25 August 2005 13:47
“I guess another option is to roundup the entire yard before seeding. Not sure that I’d want to do this though unless it’s the only vialbe option.”
Do it right or don’t do it at all.
Use Roundup, wait 10 days and then scalp it, till it, and then sow with Perennial Rye. It’s too late to seed with a warm weather grass like Bermuda or Zoysia which can be done when the soil temp is (steadily) 68F at a 2″ depth next spring. You only other option is to sod with a warm season grass in hopes that it will become well established by your first frost. My choice for DFW would be Zoysia.
Qwerty – posted 25 August 2005 13:59
Jazzman,
Topdressing isn’t really going to solve my problems. It won’t get rid of the rocks underneath the grasses unfortnately. It’d be a big project cleaning up the mess that those idiots made in the first place. As I water more ,the soil settles exposing more bumps where the rocks are. I have to raze the whole yard to get the rocks out and put in new grasses.
I would like to try zoysia but i don’t know if it’s worth it. it’d be impossible to get rid of all bermuda. Just a little sprig will be enough to take over. I’m already seeing that in small enclosed area where i’m growing zenith zoysia from seeds. Bermuda used to occupy it and i thought I had gotten rid of them entirely but i guess not. Either sodding St Augustine and keeping the cutting height to keep bermuda under control or get better quality bermuda seeds like Yukon would work better. I have a live oak tree out there but it’ll be 20 years before it provide enough shades to finally kill off bermuda…
mwhite125 – posted 25 August 2005 18:19
Hello if you want to topdress beneficial compost the easiest and best way hire this company called Soils Alive out of Garland,TX. Check out this little movie along with the rest of the site. Here ya go….Click on Soil Restoration….
Qwerty – posted 25 August 2005 21:00
Soils Alive sounds good but too pricey for most people. All of us can do it ourselves with no problems if we put effort into it.
Do it yourself program
1) 1 cubic yard of finished fine screened compost per 1000sqft every spring if needed. This is probably the most important step of all. This is to introduce microbes into the soil. They help break down thatch, prevent disease, etc. Once, the soil is very fertile, you don’t need to do it as long as you dont kill them.
2) Feed microbes with high protein grains such as soybean, cottonseed, alfalfa, corn gluten meals, etc. They break them down into nutrients which feed plants. Starve them, they die and your plants suffer.
3) regular corn meal at 20lbs per 1000sqft to prevent damages from harmful fungus. Much better than fungucide which can kill benefical ones.
4) Proper watering. For established turf, one inch of water a week (combined irrigation and rain). For new grasses, more frequent watering but shorter period of time to keep the top inch moist for the new roots to take hold esp in the summer.
5) If having problems with insects such as grubs, implant beneficial nematodes into wet soil at night. It will start working within few days. There are two kinds. I cant spell them but make sure you know what you are getting to control specific insects. Well the list is very long though. Fleas, ticks, grubs, ants, crickets, worms (not earthworms), spiders, etc will be affected. For grasshopper, it’s Nolo Bait. They eat them, get infected and die and other grasshoppers eat dead grasshopers and die too. I need to get them. i live next to ranch and its ridiculous.
6) Try to use mycorrhizal fungus products when planting new trees, shrubs, and even new grasses. They will benefit tremendously. Just don’t use fungucide or round up or roto till the soil. They will kill them or reduce them greatly. Organic practice will help tremendously, too.
turfrus – posted 26 August 2005 07:37
>I would like to try zoysia but i don’t know if it’s worth it.
Q, it’s worth it, trust me. The best varieties, if you want a medium width blade that cuts easily with a rotary mower, are El Toro, Palisades, and Jamur, the latter being the most hardy/toughest in all regards according to the pros who do this for a living and what I’ve seen personally. Zeon is the best if you’re looking for a fine bladed species. An entire golf course was sodded in Zeon in San Antonio. A Google search will bring the info up.
>it’d be impossible to get rid of all bermuda.
No it wouldn’t, not if you use Roundup first or use Ornamec once the Zoysia is established but I think you’ll find Zoysia is so invasive and thick it will smother out anything once established, and I’m talkin’ sod. I can’t believe the extensive, thick, underground rhysomes on ‘Jamur’ Zoysia – very cool. I had 6,000 s.f. of weeds like crabgrass, dallis, quackgrass, etc. which included tough underground rhizome type perennials called ‘Nightshade’, the weed from hell, and finally whipped MOST of them, I think. Took about 4 sprayings of Roundup. Finally scalped with a lawnmower and Weedeater and did the ole head-down-hiney-up drill in preparation for laying the sod.
>Just a little sprig will be enough to take over.
Not in well established Zoysia, which for me took about one week before setting roots into native soil.
>I have a live oak tree out there but it’ll be 20 years before it provide enough shades to finally kill off bermuda…>
Jamur is just beautiful under the shade of large Oak trees whether the oak species are Burr, Chinkapin, Shumard or Live….doesn’t matter. Recommend you give up on the Zenith and leave it to the golf course managers. Anyone care for 8 lbs. of Zenith seed? 🙂
QWERTY – posted 26 August 2005 08:31
Turfrus-
I agree with you on zoysia being very nice looking when established. My twin brother and I fooled around with it at our parents house 12 years ago and they’re still there fighting off against SA. My brother said that SA is SLOWLY taking over. I think he’s trying to encourage SA to take over.
I called places about getting those zoysia that you mentioned and they’re EXPENSIVE. The cheapest by far is Empire at 135 dollars per pallet through A-1 grass in dallas area. Do you have any experiences with Empire? The rest are at least 165 or more. I had entertained sodding front yard with Empire next spring but that means I have to put in a lot of work getting rid of those damn limestone rocks that the builder didnt bother to remove before installing bermuda sod.
The small enclosed area where Im growing zenith zoysia faces afternoon sun all day long. No shade at all. That would get bermuda grass going in no time. I’m pulling them up carefully to ensure that I got the roots out too. One that I pulled out, it had tiny piece of ryizome that managed to send out a new runner. It was just something to experiment with to keep myself busy. It looks pretty good after a month. No stolons yet but from a distance, you’d think it was entirely covered with zoysia…
mwhite125 – posted 26 August 2005 13:17
Qwerty,
Lets face it, an average lawn is over 5k sq. ft, and 5 or more cu. yd’s of screened compost is ALOT of work to do by hand. I myself work outside everyday and theres no way in hell I would do it when its this hot, I would much rather pay $250 for some company i.e., Soils Alive to hydrocompost it in about an hour. As far as those “bolders” your builder left behind, I sodded my whole backyard(3200 sq. ft) myself this past spring and removed about 30 wheel barrow full loads of rock/concrete before laying my sod down, I agree with you that it does suck having all those bumps when your mowing. If I were in your shoes I would of had the builder or myself roll the sod with a roller to press everything down, a buddy of mine bought a new case and same scenario like yours, we rolled it after he closed on the casa and its smooth as hell.
QWERTY – posted 26 August 2005 16:25
Mwhite
I’ve done 12 cubic yard of topsoil for the backyard myself. That’s after hauling #’s of wheelborrows of rocks out of the backyard in the middle of july. Once all that is done, i sodded 6 pallets myself. I wish i could have them blow compost but i just dont have the fund for that after 6-7 pallets of Empire Zoysia (apparently about 20 miles from here, there’s a empire sod farm south of dallas and it’s cheap)and as much as compost as I can get for less money if I have to do it myself. My backyard is much more level than the front yard. i even rolled the front yard and it worked only temporarly. The soil continued to settle from watering causing the rocks to pop out a bit. I’ve had to use 6 inches screwdriver to prod the front yard to make sure it’s rocks and usually, i end up digging up rocks. Some spots where the rocks are, the bermuda isn’t doing so good from lack of root development while the rest are thriving. I’m always finding new ones every other day. I will finish them in october when its a lot cooler.
mwhite125 – posted 26 August 2005 19:12
Qwerty,
Better you than me, I tell you what if I had 12 cu yd’s of dirt laying there, I would drive my happy ass down and haul about 5 gringo’s back and put em to work. I did 8 pallets myself and its a breeze when its nice and cool. I love my Empire, grows slow and thick as hell after one season, using good ferts of course, what brand ferts do you use?
QWERTY – posted 26 August 2005 21:29
Mwhite
When i said about getting Empire zoysia, that’s next spring. I got distracted by my baby daughter and screwed my train of thought. I sodded Palmetto for the back. I plan on sodding Empire for the front yard facing east and side yard facing south (i live on a corner lot)so obviously, Empire sounded like a better choice to deal with intense afternoon sun in texas. This house was built in July and the soil isn’t very good. I have to improve the condition of soil via organic way, you know compost, lots of high protein grains or organic fertilizers to feed mirobes. I will use a bit of chemical stuff if I really need it but I will never use fungucide products. I feel that it does the most damage to the soil fertlity. I also read that using round up damages mycorrhizal fungus badly. Of course, they need the roots to survive and round up kills them. The only thing that’s more damaging is tilling the soil up. I will use round up on neighbors grass though. I just did that earlier today. Bermuda were trying to sneak under the fence into the backyard. For insecticide products, I don’t really know if I will use them because I don’t know if they’ll affect benefical insects. I’ll just try benefical nematodes and see if it’ll work. They will kill over 200 different insects (i think) including ants, grubs, ticks, fleas, crickets, sod webworm, army worms, etc but won’t affect earthworms. I’ll use insecticide as a last resort.
How high do you cut your Empire? How much watering does it take to keep it looking good during the dry period? Palisade was my top choice but the cost was prohibtive, about 50 bucks more a pallet than Empire only because of the test A&M conducted in Dallas to see which variety does well. Nothing on Empire so all i have is customer’s word that they look great. I’m going to check it out tomorrow at the distribution office not far from my house and see them myself.
mwhite125 – posted 27 August 2005 09:52
I mow my zoysia high around 3 inches or so, just make sure your blades are sharp, I have 2 gator mulching blades that I rotate 1 or 2 mowings. These blades puree the cut grass in very small particles. To be honest with you I think that empire needs more water than bermuda, if gone 2-3 days with the sprinklers system goin the blades with fold inward and looks really bad, but as soon as it gets a good rain or water it comes back, I really only have this problem on the high areas in my back yard, it grades high at the back fence and comes down and away towards the house. I too will be trying out organic means next season, might put out some CGM this fall and early sping as a pre-em along with mechanical aeration, since its mostly clay and compacted. Quick question for ya, is there any organic material that I can put down to help out dry spots to hold more moisture? I have a few spots on my bermuda that are just real dry, these areas are close to my sprinkler heads but it does get some water but it just looks like crap.
QWERTY – posted 27 August 2005 11:03
Yeah, it takes a while to establish new grasses. I would try very deeply watering once in a while to encourage the roots to go deeper. I’m not sure when you sodded yours but if it’s been a year, the roots should be deep enough to try it. Someone tried this extreme method on his established turf; he used soaker hose, lined it up at the top of the lawn, turn the faucet on to a slow trickling flow and leave it on for 3 weeks. Thats right 3 nonstop weeks! The water doesn’t run off very much. Just very slowly draining deeply. After that, he moved it down 18 inches and do another 3 weeks cycle till he reaches the bottom of the lawn and started back up at the top and start over. He said that he saw dramatic improvement and ever since then, the soil was able to absorb more water rapidly than before (think of a sponge, if its totally dry, the water runs off quickly, you have to keep it from getting completely dried up).
If you spread compost and feed microbes with high protein grain, they will”aerate” your soil making the mechanical aerator unneccessary although one time use to jump start it will not hurt if you’re starting organic. It will gradually improve over the next few years. It will be very rich soil as long as you don’t use fungucide products (big no-no) and other chemical products. Use regular corn meal for fungus damage prevention. Once in a while, use compost tea or any other foliar spray products to add microbes population. if you do it right, you’ll never need to get expensive compost. Just keep feeding microbes in the soil and they will make your soil very rich. They should provide more than enough nitrogen to Empire unlike bermuda which requires a lot more nitrogen to stay green. Next summer, Empire should require a lot less water to stay green when the roots are much more developed.
For the sprinkler heads, I would think if it receives full sun (assuming they’re exposed), the surrounding area would dry up faster because it absorbs sunlight/heat from the sun. You know black color absorb more heat. How about replacing them with white heads? White color absorbs the least amount of heat from the sun. Actually, i’ve never seen them so i don’t know if anyone actually sells them. It’s just a guess since I don’t have automatic sprinkler system. I just use soaker hose ( found it very useful for my sloped parts of the yard) or ossicilating sprinkler. Spread some fine compost around the sprinkler heads. It should help a bit but how much, i have no idea.
GoBermuda – posted 21 August 2006 14:42
This thread is very interesting for me – I have recently moved into an old house in Dallas, TX that has a decent stand of St Augustine. However, I much prefer a small-bladed bermuda. The chinch bugs have really devestated this grass in the last month, so it’s motivating me to proceed with the approach outlined here – a full kill, then seed with Rye grass in late September for a pretty Fall/Winter look, then seed with a nice hybrid bermuda in Apr/May.
What I CANNOT decide upon is which variety?? I do have some trees in the front yard, but not so significant to rule out bermuda. I guess my primary question is simple – which of the cool, new hybrids (Yukon, Riviera, Blackjack, whatever…) is BEST suited to 20-30% shade during a typical day? My secondary criteria is wear, as we have children that will be playing on it consistently.
Turfmiester – posted 21 August 2006 16:48
Have you thought of maybe trying one of the Paspalums ? If you live in a community that uses reclaimed water, (effluent) then you are set. It requries little fertilizer, does well in the shade and you can use salt to kill the weeds. It is worth looking in to.
Turfmiester – posted 21 August 2006 16:53
Have you thought about Seaisle 1 Paspalum? It thrives on reclaimed (effluent) water and you can kill weeds with salt. Might be worth looking in to.