TexanOne – posted 06 July 2006 03:22
I have a question about St Augustine grass I want to throw out here for discussion and comments:
In West Texas, we are experimenting and propagating some St Augustine grass varieties that seem to have some pretty extraordinary qualities. One variety in particular has demonstrated for decades that it will survive and thrive with little water in temperatures from -5 deg F to +115 deg F. During temperatures well above +100 deg F, the humidity routinely will be <10% with windy conditions.
The water requirement of these St Augustine grass varieties is quite low for the species. In full sun field tests, this St Augustine grass will remain very attractive at 35% – 40% evapotranspiration levels in semi-arid and arid regions with a soil pH of 8.3. Of course, like any turfgrass, it will go dormant or die out without any rainfall or irrigation for long periods. Testing is in progress on the lowest limits of water requirements. Performance of this St Augustine grass in the humid Southeast US is unknown.
In addition to the above qualities, these turfgrasses are SAD resistant and do not appear to be bothered by chinch bugs, but resistance to insect damage may be a regional attribute. Undoubtedly, some of these St Augustine grasses are genetic mutations of Texas Common that have adapted to very harsh arid conditions.
There are no claims of this St Augustine grass being any kind of miracle grass, but as I said above, it has been growing and thriving for decades in conditions that are fatal to most other drought resistant/tolerant turfgrasses including buffalograss. Some of the most promising varieties were obtained from abandoned residential yards that have not been irrigated for years.
For anyone that wishes to comment: What are your opinions about the potential market for these turfgrasses? I will attempt to answer any and all questions
Tungsten – posted 07 July 2006 08:08
Wow. I’d like to try those varieties! I’ve never heard of them having that kind of cold tolerance or drought tolerance… Do they stay green through the winter? My mom’s st aug in houston (all kinds of variety… common, del mar, palmetto, sapphire that I know of, possibly a few more) and we keep them mowed high and they stayed green through the winters unlike most neighbors. They almost never get fertilized or get supplemental irrigation.
I live in Midlothian, about 20 miles south of Dallas and I have Palmetto (sodded last summer) in the back and Sapphire in the front (sodded in feb). I’m pretty satisfied with them so far. Palmetto stayed green pretty much 11 months out of 12 months. It took 14*F temp last dec to knock them out completely only to start growing new blades in january. Now they are very very thick at 3-4 inches hieght, whatever the highest setting i have on my lawnmower. sappire variety is a different animal. Very rapid grow in, establishment and spreads very fast. Can get quite thick in matter of couple months.
I plugged in Del Mar that I got from Lowes to see how fast they spread… they spread like snails. I dont know why Lowes and other places sell them as plugs. They just spread sooooo slowly.
I have another variety which is still up in the air of which exactly it is… I talked to people from turfgrass america and they say it’s raleigh but they look nothing like my neighbor whom said his is Raleigh. Mine awfully look like Floratam based on THICK, dark red purplish stolons. They spread pretty fast as well.
gatorgringo – posted 07 July 2006 12:26
Is it resistant to any fungus such as Gray Leaf spot?
hankhill – posted 07 July 2006 23:10
IMO, the biggest shortcoming of my St. Augustine lawn is that I’m so limited inpost-emergent weed control. Stopping invading bermuda and dallisgrass is horriblylabor intensive.
I’d like to see a Roundup-resistant St. Augustine. I heard the people at Scott’sengineered a “roundup resistant” bermuda, which is just nuts–why supercharge a weed?I guess the golf courses are much more lucrative than homeowners, unfortunately.
TexanOne – posted 08 July 2006 01:00
This St Augustine goes mostly dormant in the winter Tungsten. There are some green stolons near the soil level below the dormant turf, but little green showing. We are trying our SA variety in side-by-side tests with Palmetto. So far, the new variety appears much more aggressive than Palmetto and tends to completely overrun and dominate Palmetto, but the downside is our variety is not quite as fine-textured and good looking in overall texture and color. The differences are very subtle but under close examination, a person with an eye for turfgrass will be able to distinguish a slight difference. A strong advantage of the new variety is that it spreads very rapidly with fast stolon growth creating new colonies everywhere many feet away from the parent plant within a few weeks of planting.
Gatorgringo I dont have a clue about gray leaf spot resistance but there isnt any evidence of it where its being tested. GLS generally isnt a problem in West Texas, so I cant say for sure. Hopefully, there will be an extended hot and humid weather period soon to test for GLS. I also am hoping for a very cold winter to see how it stacks up against Palmetto but we already know that it has survived two freezes several years apart to 5 deg F without any winter kill problems.
Hankhill this SA variety is very resistant to MSMA damage at application rates 2x-3x the recommended dosage. Glyphosphate however will kill it. I read several posts in this forum that ask for solutions to control bermudagrass infestations in St Augustine. Around this part of the country, bermudagrass doesnt stand a chance of survival against healthy St Augustine provided that enough irrigation / rainfall is present and if N is limited to <3lbs/1000ft2/yr.
Tungsten – posted 08 July 2006 06:57
Hankhill,
Right now, the best way to keep bermuda under control is mowing high (bermuda does poorly under shade) and watering enough to keep them growing agressively, probably one inch of water a week during the hottest part of the summer. I practice organic lawn care and mine get THICK, not to mention cutting down watering!. A lot of people complain that organic lawn care doesn’t work well on bermuda because it needs a lot of nitrogen. Your best bet is an agressive variety of st augustine that will overwhelm bermuda. Right now, I only know one variety that I would highly recommend is called Sapphire which is a new variety that just got on the market last fall. They establish very quickly and have very quick lateral spread. I have stepping stones on the side yard and after 3 months, I have no idea where they are. Completely swallowed up! Another variety that probably also will compete with bermuda is called Floratam which is pretty agressive but its biggest downsides are poor shade tolerant and poor cold tolerant which is why I’m hesisant to recommend it…
TexanOne – As far as I know, Palmetto has the best cold tolerance, as low as 5*F which isn’t even close to yours at MINUS 5*F! That’s entirely another zone! Where exactly is the testing being done? Is it that agressive? I am concerned that it could be too agressive for homeowners over here with more rainfall or even worse Gulf Coast area, meaning mowing 2-3x a week at its growing peak (then again i did mow 2x a week in houston from march till oct if recieved enough rain anyway). What is your watering practice, fertlization program and mowing habit (cutting height/frequency per week)?
I sure would like to have a piece of yours to play with. I just have to find a place for it to grow. Perhaps the unirrigated park w/ bermuda across the street from my house…
How long before we know more about this super grass? I’ve heard of such grass in San antonio that someone was telling me about how his neighbor never waters, fertilizes, or even mow and they still stayed green through winters!
hankhill – posted 09 July 2006 00:03
TexasOne: I thought MSMA was strictly prohibited on SA lawns (at any level).When you say “very resistant to MSMA damage at application rates 2x-3x the recommendeddosage,” what recommended rate are you referring to?
TexanOne – posted 09 July 2006 02:01
The MSMA application rates to this St Augustine were made using Prokoz Turf Max 6+ MSMA. The maximum recommended rate of use in established Bermuda and Zoysia turf is 2 fluid oz / 5-gal of water generally used to control nutsedge, crabgrass, and other grassy weeds in those varieties. Applications of the MSMA were made 2x / month @ 4 6 fluid oz / 5-gal water during the entire 2003 growing season (late Mar mid Nov). Although the MSMA slightly to greatly discolored it and slowed the growth of the SA, it did not kill it as it should have. The application of this quantity of MSMA did discolor and stunt the growth of a Zenith / Palisades Zoysia mix the St Augustine was growing in.
For a little historical background an established, older 1700 sq ft St Augustine lawn in San Angelo, Texas with a mix of full sun to almost full shade conditions was renovated in early 1999 to make way for a new Zoysia lawn of seeded Zenith and plugged Palisades. Glyphosphate was used to kill off the existing SA grass. The dead grass was then verti-mowed and sprayed with Glyphosphate again. One week after the 2nd glyphosphate treatment, the Zoysia was seeded and plugged. Within a few weeks of Zoysia planting, a small patch of SA grass appeared (about 1-2 sq ft) that evidently escaped being killed off. This small patch of SA that appeared was not viewed as a problem at the time because I assumed I could kill it off with a post-emergent herbicide, or the Zoysia would crowd it out. This assumption was completely wrong. Attempts were made to eradicate this SA grass from the Zoysia from 1999 2005. No selective herbicides were effective in controlling the SA. In addition to the MSMA, Drive 75DF was also used at recommended rates and was also ineffective.
I stopped the herbicide treatments in 2005, at which time the SA had spread to about 500 sq ft, and I then tried to kill the SA by completely stopping irrigation this is a surefire way to quickly kill any turfgrass in West Texas. After several months of no irrigation, the SA had slowed to almost zero spread and was quite drought stressed, but it was still an acceptable green color. The Zoysia however had dried out long ago and was mostly dead except for a few small patches. At this point, which turfgrass variety would you think a reasonable person would select?
This SA grass has been growing since 1978 and has withstood some very severe conditions during those years including two record-setting freezes in 1983 and 1989 where the temperature on both occasions got down to minus 5 deg F that totally killed off all of the local Raleigh SA. In the summer, the temperatures routinely rise above 100 deg F, and in some cases to 110 115 deg F when very dry air masses off the Chihuahuan Desert set in for several weeks. In addition, the soil is a hardpan, alkaline clay with a pH of 8.3 with irrigation water quality about the same pH.
I contacted Dr Engelke and Dr Genovesi at TAMU Dallas earlier this year to ask them if they were interested in testing this SA grass. Both were quite interested and I submitted samples to them at their request. These samples are now being propagated at TAMU and Im waiting to hear updates after DNA and preliminary testing is done. If TAMU doesnt want to pursue this venture, I have some local turfgrass farmers wanting part of the action to market it. So at this time, I just cant give it away until I hear something from TAMU sorry, I wish I could because I would like to know how it does in other places.
[This message has been edited by TexanOne (edited 09 July 2006).]
TexanOne – posted 09 July 2006 02:38
Tungsten I believe the story about the San Antonio SA grass that never needs water or feeding. Old-timer gardeners throughout Texas all say that St Augustine is the best turfgrass for a low, or no maintenance turf. From a personal perspective, I have tried about every turfgrass that will grow in Texas at one time or another. St Augustine has been the easiest, drought resistant, best looking, and most trouble-free turf of all for Texas.
One thing I forgot to mention in the last post I dug up part of the St Augustine grass and sodded about 100 sq ft of Palmetto. The native St Augustine has spread into the Palmetto and is well on its way to overrunning the Palmetto and completely taking over much as it did to the Zoysia.
The native SA is being maintained at 3 cutting height, which produces very few cuttings it stays quite low and very thick. The Palmetto has a much more vertical habit and does produce some cuttings at a 3 cutting height. The native SA needs to be mowed / groomed primarily to control lateral stolon growth over curbing and to cut stolons that are growing upward and laterally trying to overrun the Palmetto and remaining Zoysia. During hot, dry periods, the Palmetto tends to curl, yellow, and wilt while the native SA doesnt. As I said in an earlier post, the Palmetto has a very slight advantage in the good looks category but in my opinion, the native SAs other attributes outweigh that advantage. By the end of this growing season, I dont think its going to matter because the native SA will probably cover the entire 1700 sq ft – Palmetto, Zoysia, and all.
hankhill – posted 09 July 2006 02:55
Who here wouldn’t like to try some of that SA turf you describe? I’m having that turf! :-)Maybe you can get Turfgrass America to sell it for you?
[This message has been edited by hankhill (edited 09 July 2006).]
TexanOne – posted 09 July 2006 03:18
Hankhill Good point, and I am well on my way of planning self-marketing this SA if TAMU doesnt want to proceed. Dr Engelke told me that he would personally put me in contact with producers if the TAMU deal doesnt work out. For the time being, I really believe that something positive will come from TAMU the cold tolerance of this SA is probably its greatest asset. I also already know from my own experimentation this SA only requires 30% – 35% ET irrigation to remain attractive (40% – 45% ET to continue spreading).
It hasnt been tested in the humid, wet SE USA and it may be very possible it has some unknown fatal flaw that exists that limits its use to the drier SW USA. Time will tell
Tungsten – posted 09 July 2006 09:51
Wow… Talk about super tough st augustine!
TAMU would be crazy to not market this. That’s a lot of money to be made as this would expand further out west and north.
Perhaps the next Floratam… with cold tolerance…
I sure would like to have a sample of this SA. I’ll even pay for it! I guess I’ll have to wait. Any idea how long this whole process will take with TAMU?
TexanOne – posted 10 July 2006 03:16
Im not sure about the exact timeline involved. My understanding is that testing will occur in 3 different locations over the next year Cleveland, TX, College Station, TX, and Dallas, TX. Cold testing is done in Knoxville, TN. If enough stock sod material can be produced by TAMU within the next few months, the cold testing will be conducted this winter, otherwise that will have to done in the winter of 2007-2008. Anyway, all testing should be completed by mid-2009, at which point TAMU will decide if its worthy of release.
I think a reasonable prediction can be made from the information I have: The West Texas SA will probably be crossbred with some other finer-textured SA varieties to produce a completely new fine textured and dwarf variety (or varieties) but still retaining the cold tolerance. This should push the cold limits of growing SA to at least the USDA Hardiness Zone 6b, and possibly as far north as Zone 6a. I think the coldest commercial varieties available for now are Palmetto and Raleigh, and they are only recommended for Zone 7b. If it is genetically altered into something else, it may be many years until something is commercially available.
Tungsten – posted 10 July 2006 12:25
Alright. I will have to wait and see how that turns out. I think Palmetto does better than Raleigh in cold weather(assuming I do really have Raleigh that Turfgrass mistakenly sent me instead of Palmetto; probably one pallet worth of Raleigh along with 5 pallets of Palmetto).
Does Raleigh have thick purple reddish stolons? My neighbor who has Raleigh has thinner green stolon so I don’t know who to believe. I told Turfgrass America that they looked like Floratam and I sent a runner to them. They told me that they don’t even grow Floratam where they grow Palmetto. Who knows…
Anyway, early in March when we had mild freeze, Raleigh suffered while Palmetto laughed it it. It was only like maybe 30* It had aleady greened up completely by then.
[This message has been edited by Tungsten (edited 10 July 2006).]
hankhill – posted 10 July 2006 17:36
What’s this “cold” that you speak of? :-)My TX lawn may fall to 27 F one day a year…
Tungsten – posted 11 July 2006 06:10
quote:Originally posted by hankhill:What’s this “cold” that you speak of? :-)My TX lawn may fall to 27 F one day a year…
Lucky you…
TexanOne – posted 12 July 2006 00:42
quote:Originally posted by Tungsten: Lucky you…
Really…
TexanOne – posted 12 July 2006 00:44
I’d post some pictures if I could figure out how to do that on this website
Tungsten – posted 12 July 2006 07:10
Try photobucket. After you upload pictures, you will have 3 choices of how to post pictures… Let me see which one I can use on it…
TexanOne – posted 12 July 2006 13:11
Thanks for the photobucket tip Tungsten I did it. Here are some pictures I took today. It was hot, dry, and windy day (101 deg F / 25% humidity). The SA was irrigated 2 days ago and cut @ 3 four days ago.
SA005: An overall full sun photo. The SA is sending seedheads up right now but they are not noticeable at all:
queechie – posted 01 August 2006 18:53
Tungsten,
Can you elaborate on what you mean by “practice organic lawn care”. What does that mean exactly? What do you do to care for your lawn?
Thanks!
drygreen – posted 11 October 2010 05:48
quote:Originally posted by TexanOne:Tungsten I believe the story about the San Antonio SA grass that never needs water or feeding. Old-timer gardeners throughout Texas all say that St Augustine is the best turfgrass for a low, or no maintenance turf. From a personal perspective, I have tried about every turfgrass that will grow in Texas at one time or another. St Augustine has been the easiest, drought resistant, best looking, and most trouble-free turf of all for Texas.
One thing I forgot to mention in the last post I dug up part of the St Augustine grass and sodded about 100 sq ft of Palmetto. The native St Augustine has spread into the Palmetto and is well on its way to overrunning the Palmetto and completely taking over much as it did to the Zoysia.
The native SA is being maintained at 3 cutting height, which produces very few cuttings it stays quite low and very thick. The Palmetto has a much more vertical habit and does produce some cuttings at a 3 cutting height. The native SA needs to be mowed / groomed primarily to control lateral stolon growth over curbing and to cut stolons that are growing upward and laterally trying to overrun the Palmetto and remaining Zoysia. During hot, dry periods, the Palmetto tends to curl, yellow, and wilt while the native SA doesnt. As I said in an earlier post, the Palmetto has a very slight advantage in the good looks category but in my opinion, the native SAs other attributes outweigh that advantage. By the end of this growing season, I dont think its going to matter because the native SA will probably cover the entire 1700 sq ft – Palmetto, Zoysia, and all.
I see you have some great St. Augustine. I live in Midland TX which is well know for its dryness, almost no rain. I also have some St. Augustine which I am surprised to see that at the end of October is still thick and as green as can be. I got to this website asking when is the best time to let it ‘die out’ for winter but maybe I dont need to quit watering or letting it ‘die out’. Tell me what kind of St. Aug. do you have there in San Angelo?